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Old Oct 12, 2005, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demetrius
on lipos amp distribution goes up after packs warm up! you are definitely looking at more than your quote of 62 static amps and i can't find any figure that fancal calculates for less then 75 amps with a 6s2p pack! And that's being generous! Maybe Chris and a few other guys can jump in here!
I'm figuring it with TP2100s, the impedence is higher. Course, they can only really take bursts around 65 amps anyways.
Also, fancalc is saying one thing and motocalc is saying another. Which one is right? I've tried to compare the fan specs in fancalc but I cant make heads or tails of the numbers there.
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Old Oct 12, 2005, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gambit7
nope, I do mean the 22/20/3. Max current for these motors is 70A. My calcs. show 62 static, fancalc has it at around 70 static. Motor is actually recommended for the 90mm Midi by Mega. For a 4-6s lipoly setup they'd work great. Max RPMs are 40k, most that goes is 38k.

Of course, on paper is one thing. But I'm pretty confident I'll RARELY even be operating more then 40 amps, which is the standard amp rating for this motor. It'll handle 70AMPS in long bursts easy.

If I switched to a lighter more efficient fan it makes things even easier of course. But, I dont have that kind of dough.

btw: it also saves 60 grams (over 2 ounces).
First off, you aren't going to get any where near 38K RPM on that motor in a midi fan .

Personally, I would not push a 20/3 past maybe 50 amps. That 70 amp figure is perhaps for brief bursts. Herb flies his at those current levels but he has a VERY disciplined throttle thumb. I think he has said almost the entire flight is at 1/2 throttle. This setup is an accident waiting to happen, first time you hit full throttle for more than about 20 seconds I'd expect to see smoke or ESC shutdown due to demagged motors...
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Old Oct 12, 2005, 05:23 PM
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Hi Emile!

Your Rafale Looks GREAT!!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=87

Video Please

Alex
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Old Oct 12, 2005, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
First off, you aren't going to get any where near 38K RPM on that motor in a midi fan .

Personally, I would not push a 20/3 past maybe 50 amps. That 70 amp figure is perhaps for brief bursts. Herb flies his at those current levels but he has a VERY disciplined throttle thumb. I think he has said almost the entire flight is at 1/2 throttle. This setup is an accident waiting to happen, first time you hit full throttle for more than about 20 seconds I'd expect to see smoke or ESC shutdown due to demagged motors...
I've run nothing but Megas for most of my "e-career" . And actually, I've had this motor in a similar setup on a pylon-type plane pulling the same amps if not more. Only problem I had was too much speed, hehe.

I do agree with you about the Midi fan though, I'm tempted to maybe try to find a nice used Schubeler or Spider, that would help bring the RPMs up and the amperage down.

And dont worry, like I already said, this setup will rarely go over 40 amps. The 70amp figure is just like you said... burst only. I'm shooting for a light setup below 70 oz. Probably without retracts and rudder. It should cruise around quickly at 50% throttle.

Everyone seems to fall in love with the static amp ratings on these things. When they unload they draw very little power. If you're running a system with thrust:weight over 1:1 even strong vertical maneuvers at 100% wont draw anything near static amperage.

Anyways, I'm gonna be stubborn on this
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 06:54 AM
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Fans do not unload appreciably. If you draw 70 on the ground it'll draw 70 in the air unlike a pylon plane where it is quite normal for a high pitch prop to draw a fraction of the static figure at speed.
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
Fans do not unload appreciably. If you draw 70 on the ground it'll draw 70 in the air unlike a pylon plane where it is quite normal for a high pitch prop to draw a fraction of the static figure at speed.
That is correct, nevertheless fans WILL unload SOME. Albeit not as much as a prop. But it could be the difference between smoking an ESC and merely making it hot.

Would be nice to log in-flight data. Anyone have a nice datalogger one could use in the air?
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 10:46 AM
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There is a flight data logger system that pops-up in the banner ads Eagle flight data or some such thing, I know that Ted Goodwin uses it on his big F-16 at www.crosswindcomposites.com
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 11:09 AM
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The TMM speed controllers also have a logging feature.
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Greene
The TMM speed controllers also have a logging feature.

Norman do you any experience with the TMM controller/logger?
Thhanks, Bob
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gambit7
That is correct, nevertheless fans WILL unload SOME. Albeit not as much as a prop. But it could be the difference between smoking an ESC and merely making it hot.

Would be nice to log in-flight data. Anyone have a nice datalogger one could use in the air?
It can be dangerous extrapolating from glo application to EDF. You may be thinking of when a prop unloads on a glo engine, the available engine torque wud push an increase in rpm. A brushless motor turns mainly according to the motor Kv & the terminal voltage it sees. First off the fans don't unload much, so the amps at rpm does not go down much to give significantly less IR drop, so the motor hardly gain any rpm. Yes, some of us have run with the Eagle Tree data system or used audio doppler to measure in-flight rpms & speed.

Have fun with EDF. Enjoy.

Phil
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agustapower
Norman do you any experience with the TMM controller/logger?
Thhanks, Bob
I have used their controllers for a long time now, and I am very impressed. The first USB upload/download software was difficult to operate, but with the new version it is very simple.
It is hard to judge these things objectively, but I have evolved my way into using only two types of controller in my models and TMM is one. As time passes and I am completely satisfied, I find myself buying more of them.

But they are not breaking on me, so the old ones have not needed replacement. And that meant that they are only going into my new models I am finishing. One of which will fly at the weekend. So I will let you know.

A pal has some already in his models, and he found 2 interesting results. The amps may go up when you take off, if the prop was stalled before launch, and it loads up when you fly away. You would expect amps to go down on flyaway, but this only happens sometimes. Also, the amps vary between flights more than expected, so he is looking at average figures.
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 02:26 PM
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this looks like a handy in flight data system
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=15
(very interesting post also!!)
alex
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 02:31 PM
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only problem with a logger in that format is it only really tells you what the battery is doing, doesnt say much if anything of the motor. Since heat is resistance and each pack reacts different with each day and with a different charge, you really need something like an Eagle Tree to see what going on everywhere. I run eagle tree on a few of my planes and while the volts and amp go up and down quite a bit, the motor essentially see's the same load in flight and on the ground.

Barry
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 03:09 PM
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wow, ok barry, thats a major system, very nice
http://www.eagletreesystems.com/Plane/plane.html

Alex
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkamarm2000
only problem with a logger in that format is it only really tells you what the battery is doing, doesnt say much if anything of the motor. Since heat is resistance and each pack reacts different with each day and with a different charge, you really need something like an Eagle Tree to see what going on everywhere. I run eagle tree on a few of my planes and while the volts and amp go up and down quite a bit, the motor essentially see's the same load in flight and on the ground.

Barry
How would the Eagle Tree react any differently? I would think a built in data logger would be more accurate. You would give up airspeed and other neat functions however. Amps is amps!
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 06:40 PM
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As Chris says, fans don't unload appreciably in flight. It's well known, and we have measured it & quantified it in flight as well. At best it's around 10%. Search under "fan unloading" and "myth" .

As far as TMM is concerned, there's very little data on them after some rather spectacular crashes & burns with their bec versions (I used to dread people fly at my field with the bec TMM's ).

One interesting set of data, from one of the largest & latest edf meeting in Germany: Motors 90% Plett, 10% Hacker, rest in the noise. Controllers 50% Schulze, 50% Jeti/Hacker Master, rest in the noise. Fans 50% Wemo, 50% DS + some other in the noise. Figures quoted from memory ! Kontronic & Lehner surprisingly not very well represented as they presumably have relatively new (but undeniably very good) products.
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Old Oct 13, 2005, 09:25 PM
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Thanks for the info. guys, learned not to trust what you see in the calculations. In a way, it's what makes e-flight so compelling... there's so much mystery and science in dealing with electrons to make things go. And things dont always go as planned, but when it does it's a beautiful thing.

That BNB Digital Power Recorder looks like the ticket... I think I'll pick one of those up. http://www.bnbproducts.com/index.htm
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Old Oct 14, 2005, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
... As far as TMM is concerned... crashes & burns with their bec versions .....
I have not had TMM BEC failures. But I don't like BEC in a model weighing over 1.5-2kgs. I always get the OPTO type once I get to 40 Amp + ESCs.

I agree with Herb on this subject. High amp ESCs may be available with BEC, but I worry about ESC heat and interference, so I don't use high amp (40A+) BEC ESCs. (BTW In brushed I used StarBEC Kontroniks at 50A)

At higher power levels, opto isolation for interference supression in the ESC to Rx wiring is important. For safe practise, once a model gets over 2kgs/4 pounds it needs a proper receiver battery, although a light weight RX battery is enough. A 4 x 600nimh, or even 4 x 350nicad is OK. Even 4 x 110AA nicads, recharging between flights, will do.
BEC should be something that only goes into light model aircraft, and gliders. And I am happy with 18 to 40A BEC ESCs in these models.
(Moderator: Maybe the above should be added to the FAQ)
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Old Oct 14, 2005, 10:25 AM
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Weight is weight, and if you want to save it BECs are great. You're absolutely right about heat and "noise" from the ESCs though, unless you're using a speed 400 type plane it's much better NOT to use whatever on-board BEC there is. I've had problems in the past with noise from ESCs, but once I added my own BEC it was fine.
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Old Oct 14, 2005, 12:20 PM
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I have used the Kontronik Jazz 55 with BEC with great success too.
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Old Oct 16, 2005, 04:32 PM
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Jazz is a great controller, as most Kontronic products. And if Bob says it works, then it works

Emile, your Rafale with twin Spiders looks like a winner! Just make sure the wings stay on ...
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Old Oct 23, 2005, 07:25 PM
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Herb
wasnt that BVM rafale Buck Garza's?. I saw same plane on bvm website. Any thoughts on moving into turbines? I seriously thinking about getting a bvm rafale for twin turbines.
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Cox
Has this been updated to the big single fan? ...
I have it from a very reliable source that kevlar Rafale kits and 120mm fans have been sitting ready in boxes for months waiting for the retracts (Spingairs 602's).

The brand new German-engineered set of 3-gear pneumatic retracts (Springair clones would be a way of describing them) should eventually overcome this nightmare Springair supply problem. I am told the new German air retracts are supposed to be better (festo fittings etc) and lighter than anything on the market today ...
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Old Oct 28, 2005, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
I have it from a very reliable source that kevlar Rafale kits and 120mm fans have been sitting ready in boxes for months waiting for the retracts (Spingairs 602's).

The brand new German-engineered set of 3-gear pneumatic retracts (Springair clones would be a way of describing them) should eventually overcome this nightmare Springair supply problem. I am told the new German air retracts are supposed to be better (festo fittings etc) and lighter than anything on the market today ...

just to let you know, i ordered the 600's from springair about a month ago. They still havent made them. Of course, hurricane slowed things donw. I have canceled my order this week cause I dont think those 600's will stand up to grass runway. (and due to my inpatience). WIll go without landing gear belly up on this thing for now.
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 02:14 AM
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Just Wondering,

Can't you use Robart Retracts?

There made in Illinois
You can get them in a week. (i've ordered mech retracts and service was fantastic)
www.robart.com
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 07:13 AM
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The new series of Robart air up / spring down are considerable larger than SA 602's. The Jet Hangar Hobbies set is a direct replacement and uses air both ways. The guy doing the Eliminator / Terminator 90 has some sort of 602 compatible retract he'll be selling. EJF has a plastic framed replacement.

602's are excellent, unfortunately Spring Air has no respect for there customers Me thinks it is time to vote with your feet.
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
unfortunately Spring Air has no respect for there customers Me thinks it is time to vote with your feet.
I disagree, I will say that they are not keeping pace with demand.
Springair is owned and operated by an older couple and she has always been a pleasure to order from. Yes I realize that some of you have waited for months at times. They just do not have enough capacity. ARF's have increased Springair demand worsening the situation. At times I have waited too, a second phone call with some sweet talking has always shortened the wait.
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 08:38 AM
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Sounds like someone should make them a offer they can't refuse
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 08:51 AM
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Well they were lucky so far they had the only product in there class so they could do that. Only problem with that buisness model is that when the demand gets great enough others will fill the product gap as we are now seeing.


Barry
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 08:59 AM
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Well, they certainly are a nice couple and Mrs. Spring Air is nice to talk to on the phone. This is not a new problem, EVERY time I've ordered over the past 4 years, which is 5 or 6 times now, I've waited a minimum of 3 months with multiple calls along the way. The latest order was just canceled after a 5 month wait with 3 contacts along the way and no action on their part. She was actually happy I canceled the order this time since they are so far behind the power curve. As a matter of fact, this past time there was a positive - THEY DIDN"T LIE TO ME! She was honest and wouldn't even make a guess as to when the order could be filled. In the past it has been "6 weeks" then each call after that the parts are supposedly ready and will be "assembled this week" which turns into at least a couple more months wait.

Pleasant or not, I'm tired of begging to spend my money.
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
... 602's are excellent, unfortunately Spring Air has no respect for their customers ...
Chris, I disagree too... He is a very nice man, I think he has been completely overwhelmed by the demand for his product (which btw has no equal yet).

He can supply a set to Herb in two weeks, but when WeMotec or Aeronaut orders 40 602 sets - well that's a matter that requires some logistics, planning & commitment ...

I understand form talking to him that he has had supplier problems too - some parts he needs to get done elsewhere. That leads to further delay.

While nobody will ever prevent Johnny Fastjet from installing a set of nice steel Hobbico 2-lbs mechanicals in his edf jet, the new German pneumatics (from a well known manufacturer & distributor) should be ultralight, solid, reliable and a Springair-602 drop in fit
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 03:30 PM
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Guess I'm in the minority then, I've been patient for the past 4 years. Nice doesn't cut it anymore. If you can't order a product a couple months before the flying season starts and receive it before the next snowfall then something is wrong

You know, I'm told by those who have seen the factory that they sell the larger retracts BY THE THOUSANDS. They are treating their 602 cutomers like a bunch of suckers. Rant off. Defend them all you want, I am no longer a customer for the small units. Actually, since the new Robarts are an excellent substitute for the 10-14 pound range I guess I am no longer a customer at all.

The old EJF - now JHH air up / down units are a perfectly acceptable substitute - lighter and thinner too. The only detriment is that robart and Spring Air supplied airline tend to leak after a year or two which is a problem with air up/down units. Use the stronger / stiffer BVM airline and that won't be an issue.
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 03:48 PM
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well im using robart air up and down retracts with closing doors using the U.P.C control valve it works fine on my twin im jut wiating for the spring to come along for my test flight
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Old Oct 29, 2005, 03:53 PM
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I thank Herb for being so detailed and for his ideas. I managed to get my canards operational and the retracts to fit in the plane without modifing the ducts to much lets just see how every thing goes when the test flight comes along
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 03:36 PM
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Chris I agree ...

I really feel deep deep empathy for those of you that have, well, what is it called again ? - a flying season and a - building season .

Seriously, I think as a one-set customer I can put up with a delay of a few weeks. But if a major manufacturer (WeMoTec, Aero-naut or Schuebeler) is given the runaround, then that's a disaster for them, and NO joke at all .

I was not aware that they sell the larger air sets by the thousands - makes the whole Springair 602 issue even more mysterious to me ...
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 04:52 PM
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thousands! really? Thats surprising to me too. If I had that much buisness I would just hire more guys to make more units, and just make more money simple as that. Even when I'm breaking even a bit I know that sometimes I just can make my cutomers wait like that, they just wont take it. Quite a few times a year I have to flat out sub an entire job out and make nothing, but the cutomer is happy.

Ofcourse the flip side it that we may not be giving them credit for even keeping a product that just might not be worth it to them. We see KY and Wattage drop a product cause another 10,000 units just doesnt fit the math, maybe being a smaller company they dont work like that.


Barry
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Old Oct 30, 2005, 04:59 PM
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I have no idea what their total sales are, just passing on an observation of a reliable friend who has been in the factory. Said the parts bins are big and full of little tiny parts. Must be a lot of retract sets sitting on the shelf in hobbiest closets cause outside of jet rally's I just don't see em show up at the flying field.
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 02:23 PM
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switching to turbines guys

ok.
after spending 2 years off and on here, i ve painfully decided that I am going to sell my rafale still sitting in box, with all formers cut and carbon fiber inside fuse. All cuts made with precision so far. Ive done most of work, so it will be very easy for anyone to put this baby together.

If anyone interested, pm me. Would consider offers.
Also, I will sell 2 brand new wemotec midi fans

Thanks Herb for all your help!
(will be looking to get the BVM rafale one day
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Old Nov 30, 2005, 05:02 PM
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Spring Air 602's

Well, I ordered 2 sets of Spring Air 602's and waited for 6+ months this was earlier this year/late last year. Unfortunately as Chris said they have been sitting on the shelf due to health problems so it was a pain to wait 6 months but not a problem as I couldnt use them anyway.

I am thinking about trying the new Robarts in my Chris Golds RA-5 Vigilante, he used Spring Air 503's His jet weighed 16# so I need to use a medium size retract, I guess I could order the 503's and see what they say?
Joe
PS: I have spoken with both Mr. and Mrs. SA several times and they have always been very nice, just not to informed on their delivery schedule.
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Old Dec 05, 2005, 07:02 AM
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Has anyone got footage of the turbine conversion of the Aeronaut?
There's photo's here:

http://www.jetline.ch/Berichte/Rafale.htm

but no footage or results.....

This plane is begging for my little Wren MW44 , if i could get my hands on one of the kevlar versions and a set of retracts....
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Old Dec 05, 2005, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.F
Has anyone got footage of the turbine conversion of the Aeronaut?
There's photo's here:

http://www.jetline.ch/Berichte/Rafale.htm

but no footage or results.....

This plane is begging for my little Wren MW44 , if i could get my hands on one of the kevlar versions and a set of retracts....

yeah, mine is coated in carbon fiber whole inside. Perfect for turbine!
Maybe I wil hold onto it. Jetcat p-60 would be more than enough probably.

It doesnt look like that turbine mount is sturdy enough. Is that a soda bottle for fuel tank? LOL. What about the tail pipe?

Is this guy going to put up a video of it flying?
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Old Dec 10, 2005, 01:28 PM
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Emile,

How about your Rafale?

JePe has one for sale.... hmmm a little bit to expensive for me.
Would love to have one!

But sure is a rocking plane!

Pascal
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Old Dec 10, 2005, 04:25 PM
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Hi Pascal,


My Sniper is on the building table right now, i'm going to push it to 800Watts.
After this little experiment i'm going to finish the Rafale.
The Rafale is a very nice model, i hope it flies as good as it looks.

PS: I blew up one Lipo of my 6s2p pack so i also have to buy a new single cell to power the Rafale with 2 Spiderfans 3W.

If i only knew a safe method to remove one lipo cell from a 4s pack (KOKAM). Maybe putting the pack into some ACETON or THINNER?


Cya tomorrow!
Emile
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Old Dec 11, 2005, 12:08 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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Hi Emile... so today you did see the Pyranha handlaunch... easy right?

I can't wait to see the Rafale fly in real life...

CU in about 2 hours to check out your Rafale :-)

Anyway, Olly I did send you a PM... waiting for your response.

Pascal
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Old Dec 11, 2005, 03:19 PM
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Hi Pascal,

Just keep throwing that Pyranha, i stick to my bungee.
BTW: Nice Video ... and what a speed!

I will try get my Rafale airborne soon, it's really a simple thing to build (ARF).
I hope you confirm that 2x Minifan will do the job too!

Grtz,
Emile
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 02:17 AM
Need 4 Speed :-)
Venray, The Netherlands
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Hi Emile,

Today I will meet Oliver (WeMoTec)...
Soon there will be a rocking Rafale in 2 x minifan's

Setup I want;

2 x HET 2W20 on 4S = 2 x 600W
She will fly pretty well on this setup I guess...

I will keep you informed on the building progress.

Pascal
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit
... mine is coated in carbon fiber whole inside. Perfect for turbine! Maybe I wil hold onto it. Jetcat p-60 would be more than enough probably. ...
The original Aeronaut Rafale was originally designed to fly on twin speed 600's. It is a very light airframe, with very little reinforcements.

Already with a hot electric setup the ultralight airframe is stressed to the limit (esp the wings). The newer kevlar version (whenever that will come out) is more rigid, but still seems - without some major work - a long way from turbine grade.

Putting a turbine in the original Rafale without a major airframe re-design is not only foolish, but outright dangerous .

There are very nice lightweight models designed for lightweight turbines (eg Schreiner, Savex) , and the Aeronaut Rafale (old or new versions) isn't one of them.
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 03:38 PM
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I spoke with Aeronaut today and they mentioned that all pre ordered Rafales (new version) will be delivered before christmas (and yes I asked: 2005) with the next batch to be delivered in feb/march 06!

If this is true we will get a delivery some time next week, and two of the kits are not yet sold.

Not sure about the exact price yet, since they like to adjust that at the last moment.

I suppose our price will be about 399 euro incl. german VAT or 343,97 Euro export.

Oliver
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 04:36 PM
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Happy Christmas, to the lucky ones!

Is there also any estimate when the new CFK 120mm fan-units will be available to power the Rafale?
A new Schubi-fan or maybe new Wemo-fan?

I have a nice Savex F16 i wan't to fire with it.

Grtz,
Emile
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 04:38 PM
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About fans:

I heard that the Schuebeler DS 94 will ship soon.

WeMoTec will switch to 120 mm too. I suppose feb/march 06.

@emile: I got the message today and the reply is on the way.

Oliver
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 08:09 PM
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I am selling my rafale off. pm me if interested. All formers cut. just glueing needed.
!
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 02:36 AM
Need 4 Speed :-)
Venray, The Netherlands
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Hi All,

@Amit; Why are you selling?

Yesterday I picked up the Rafale at WeMoTec... see the pic of this massive plane...

Pascal
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 01:19 PM
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"Well, I ordered 2 sets of Spring Air 602's and waited for 6+ months this was earlier this year/late last year. Unfortunately as Chris said they have been sitting on the shelf due to health problems so it was a pain to wait 6 months but not a problem as I couldnt use them anyway.

I am thinking about trying the new Robarts in my Chris Golds RA-5 Vigilante, he used Spring Air 503's His jet weighed 16# so I need to use a medium size retract, I guess I could order the 503's and see what they say?
Joe
PS: I have spoken with both Mr. and Mrs. SA several times and they have always been very nice, just not to informed on their delivery schedule."

Joe we keep them (602's) in stock. And we have Rafales comming in. The TF 4000 was to large for the twin 90 mm frameing
Ductedfans.com
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 04:52 PM
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Hi Herb, my buddy Henry told me to chat with you. I just bought the EJF Rafaele and had a few questions for you. PM if possible. I ordered the Hacker 80 and Schub fan unit. I will get the battery pack Robert suggested to me 9, and also want to install retracts. He said the plane should do 130+. Let me know if you have a few moments when I can pick your brain.

Dan
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dman1
Hi Herb, ... I just bought the EJF Rafaele and had a few questions for you. I ordered the Hacker 80 and Schubi fan unit. I will get the battery pack Robert suggested to me, and also want to install retracts. He said the plane should do 130+. ... Dan
There's a thread somewhere here about the EJF Rafale, do a search (the model has been around for a while, 5 yrs?).

The 90mm fan setup (wemo Midi or DS 51) should work well with Springair retracts. Not familiar with a Hacker 80? I would buy the batteries last, when the model is completed and ready to fly ...

I would suggest a Kokam 3200 HD 4S or 5S setup, the model should weigh around 70-80 oz rtf, so it will need 900+ watts or so to fly jet-like.
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodebaron51
Hi All,

@Amit; Why are you selling?

Yesterday I picked up the Rafale at WeMoTec... see the pic of this massive plane...

Pascal

its a great plane and all. I just feel the need for turbine! Will get the BVM rafale instead
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Old Dec 18, 2005, 04:03 PM
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Ive put up my Rafale for sale!
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454120

Last 2 years Ive wanted to build this beast - moving to turbines
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Old Dec 20, 2005, 02:22 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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Almost ready for the paintjob...

;-)

Pascal
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Old Dec 20, 2005, 03:28 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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Anybody knows a nice paint lay out for this plane?

Pic's would be great...
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Old Dec 20, 2005, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodebaron51
Anybody knows a nice paint lay out for this plane?

Pic's would be great...
Is that the Kevlar or Glass version? Single fan or dual?
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Old Dec 20, 2005, 04:44 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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Glass and dual fan...
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Old Dec 20, 2005, 11:29 PM
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no takers on my rafale? I havent had any replies.
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Old Dec 20, 2005, 11:32 PM
smug in granny panties
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I know I pm'd you a few times about it didnt I? I dont rember now! lol

Barry
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Old Dec 21, 2005, 11:25 AM
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Has anyone built and flown the Kevlar single fan version with retracts?

http://www.aero-naut.net/156.html?&L=1

How is the Aeronaut 120mm fan? I haven't read too much about it?
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Old Dec 21, 2005, 02:31 PM
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Yes. http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...?t=38222&pp=15

The Kevlar/single fan setup can save you 5-7 oz depending on where and how you land ...
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Old Dec 22, 2005, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Yes. http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...?t=38222&pp=15

The Kevlar/single fan setup can save you 5-7 oz depending on where and how you land ...

Thanks for the link Herb. Who sell's the Kevlar version in the US? I see Warbirds-RC has the dual.
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Old Dec 22, 2005, 11:45 AM
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PASCAL,
Are the formers precut now?
Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodebaron51
Almost ready for the paintjob...

;-)

Pascal
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Old Dec 22, 2005, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by agustapower
PASCAL,
Are the formers precut now?
Bob
I think they are for the Kevlar version, at least the link Herb posted show's a picture of the formers laid out.
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Old Dec 22, 2005, 12:37 PM
Need 4 Speed :-)
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Nope, at least not in the normal version.

Took me an evening of sawing!

Pascal
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Old Dec 22, 2005, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Rodebaron51
Nope, at least not in the normal version.

Took me an evening of sawing!

Pascal

more reason to buy mine
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Old Dec 24, 2005, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit
more reason to buy mine
Still can't sell it? Try ebay, a Aeronaut Panther just sold on there for over $400 NIB. I'm looking at the single fan version.
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Old Dec 24, 2005, 05:32 PM
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About the single version:

Aeronaut promised to deliver 2004 backorders before xmas 05, but last wednesday I got a call from Aeronaut, that they only got a very limited first delivery of Aramid Rafales, which were delivered to those who ordered before april 04.

So general availability is delayed to Feb. 06, this is for pre ordered kits.
If your dealer orders now, Aeronaut promised to deliver about May 06.
We ordered a couple kits back in april 04 so I expect to see the kits in stock in Feb. 06 with more dropping in in May.

We get a lot of inquiries about the new version and know that customers contact any dealer they can get hold of, but as long as the kits are not available from the manufacturer, dealers are all in the same situation.

Oliver
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Old Dec 24, 2005, 06:07 PM
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Thank's Oliver...I'll keep that in mind, waiting won't be a problem.
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Old Jan 02, 2006, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agustapower
Are the formers precut now? Bob
Thank god all the formers are now cnc pre-cut:

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...?t=38222&pp=15

The only funny thing is that the guy that is building the new one has a target weight of 4.2 kg, which is 0.6 kg above the weight of my twin 90mm Aeronaut Rafale, at about the same power and thrust. I hope he finds ways of drastically cutting his rtf weight ...


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Old Jan 03, 2006, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Thank god all the formers are now cnc pre-cut:

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...?t=38222&pp=15

The only funny thing is that the guy that is building the new one has a target weight of 4.2 kg, which is 0.6 kg above the weight of my twin 90mm Aeronaut Rafale, at about the same power and thrust. I hope he finds ways of drastically cutting his rtf weight ...



Must have been a concern, the formers look like Swiss Cheese and there is no additional weight savings to make in that department.

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Old Jan 03, 2006, 01:41 PM
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Yes well, you need to REALLY WANT this particular plane to sit and wait around for Aeronaut to deliver. Aeronaut is the EDF equivalent of Microsoft - big on vaporware.

Since you talk to them Oliver, let em know their customers have their number .

My personal hit parade of non-trustable vendors:

Aeronaut
Spring Air

Don't beleive anything they say, they may mean well but it is usually a lie . I think I'm actually pretty reasonable, I regularly wait several months for delivery without complaint. These guys are in a different class!
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
Yes well, you need to REALLY WANT this particular plane to sit and wait around for Aeronaut to deliver. Aeronaut is the EDF equivalent of Microsoft - big on vaporware.

Since you talk to them Oliver, let em know their customers have their number .

My personal hit parade of non-trustable vendors:

Aeronaut
Spring Air

Don't beleive anything they say, they may mean well but it is usually a lie . I think I'm actually pretty reasonable, I regularly wait several months for delivery without complaint. These guys are in a different class!
Does Aeronaut make these in Germany or farm them out to the Far East? I suspect Eastern Europe..Czech Republic?

Their webpage is not the typical cottage industry not been updated in over a year standard you see in this hobby.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 02:51 PM
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What they manage to produce is very high quality so it isn't China. Germany or quite possibly slightly furhter east. They just like to announce things several years in advance. Don't get excited until someone has it in stock...
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
What they manage to produce is very high quality so it isn't China. Germany or quite possibly slightly furhter east. They just like to announce things several years in advance. Don't get excited until someone has it in stock...
By the time I get one, it will be old hat like the Aeronaut Vampire.

Some of the latest kits/ARFs designed for Turbines coming out of China look pretty good...all they need to do now is start producing EDFs.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 03:20 PM
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czech republik!

And Aeronaut is not cottage industry but a bigger company with about 6 decades of experience in model business.

It takes forever until they start to deliver models, but once they start, they are usually very quick and reliable. And the quality standards exceeds 90% of the other stuff in the market. They are really dedicated to quality at a fair price.

You can get better stuff at much higher prices, but if you pay less, you often get remarkably worse quality.

Oliver
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True

Aeronaut is the EDF equivalent of Microsoft - big on vaporware.

... My personal hit parade of non-trustable vendors:

Aeronaut
Spring Air

Don't beleive anything they say, they may mean well but it is usually a lie . I think I'm actually pretty reasonable...
And add to it:

JePe (eg A-4 or F-16)
WeMoTec (F-16, I waited two years, and MiG-15)
Schreiner GfK occasionally (no personal experience)

AND A FEW OTHER EDF MANUFACTURERS THAT PRODUCE SOME OF THE BEST ENGINEERED EDF KITS IN THE WORLD .

Some accept kits where the left half of the fuse does not match the right half, where the wing joints don't match up with the root, and the heavy glasswork looks like it came out of a . I don't, sorry ...

Btw Chris have you ever held in your hands an Aeronaut Panther or Rafale kit? Just curious.

And in all fairness, you can buy TODAY the Panther and 2-mot Rafale in LOTS of places around the world. And the 2-mot Rafale is an absolute steal for the superb quality you get:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154235


.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mode101
...the formers look like Swiss Cheese and there is no additional weight savings to make in that department.
Mode101, this might really be the wrong model for you. I suggest you look elsewhere for something that might bring you more satisfaction.

I suppose you are quite familar with the high strength material they use for the formers, the overall layout of the fuse and finally the performance, as attested for ex. in the numerous videos of the prototype. And the track record of the well-known designer himself.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 04:02 PM
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@ Herb,

no worry, I read your sense of humour in your lines, but what is wrong with the MIG-15?
I mean you where the second customer do receive one well before it was launched officially and we said in the beginning that we could deliver 2-3 planes/month and I am quite happy to say that we are on shedule so far.

You are right with the F-16, which was a never ending story in the beginning. But now it is available from stock for about three continous years and I mut say there are more orders every day, mostly because of lipos.

BTW: We have some future ideas with the F-16. But I wonīt mention now what we do until available, not to be blamed later if it takes longer to ramp up production and to p... off all those chinese copiers waiting for their plug.

Oliver
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 04:08 PM
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Oliver

Glad you understand my humor , if you want a top notch A+ product you have to have the patience to wait for it.

If you had delivered the MiG-15 six month later, I still would have been happy - in the meantime I would have found something else to work on .

Sorry I don't have much sympathy for the "I want it now" attitude, not with this kind of products. One more example, Daniel will have his Hawk out when it's ready, if it's a year from now so be it ...
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 04:13 PM
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I missed this one in the initial list.
I am no. 36 on his waiting list, and I am not even sure which fan I will put in it when it arrives.
Since he did not start to deliver I suppose I can think about it until 2007 or so.
But donīt worry, I am busy too with other projects.

Oliver
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Mode101, this might really be the wrong model for you. I suggest you look elsewhere for something that might bring you more satisfaction.

I suppose you are quite familar with the high strength material they use for the formers, the overall layout of the fuse and finally the performance, as attested for ex. in the numerous videos of the prototype. And the track record of the well-known designer himself.

I don't think you understand what I said. My statement on the formers looking like Swiss Cheese was not condescending but more on the subject of there is little in the way of material to lose additional mass with what is already designed into the model. You mentioned "cutting weight".

No..it's the right model, but it will be some time till I get one. I would much rather have the Single 120mm, by that time they will not be like Hen's Teeth...plus the power system cost should be reduced substantially making it more feasible.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Btw Chris have you ever held in your hands an Aeronaut Panther or Rafale kit? Just curious.
Yes I have and as you say they are superb. No dissagreement at all there. My issue is with their business practice of basically announcing something as available in 3 to 6 months then maybe delivering it in 2 years.

I waited patiently for over a year as the delivery date on the TF4000 slipped then ordered in MAY 2005. Stefan at Hoellein intially thought it was available from stock then apologized after a week or two, in AUGUST I cancelled the order with them and went with someone closer who was told they would be receivng a few. In NOVEMBER with still no fan in site I cancelled that order. I don't think waiting at least an initial year plus another 6 months once they claimed it was shipping is being overly demanding! This business practice SUCKS and I will continue to ensure others thinking of their "soon to be available" products are aware of it.

It is dishonest and inexcusable.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris True
... This business practice SUCKS and I will continue to ensure others thinking of their "soon to be available" products are aware of it. It is dishonest and inexcusable.
Chris you are lashing out at Aeronaut, but I could provide you with a LONG list of "soon to be available kits" that remained pure fantasy vaporware, well after innumerable posts appeared here on RCGroups on "how I will paint mine"

Not sure I have the time or interest to compile it for you, but it would be quite interesting and enlightening. At least with JePe, WeMoTec, Schreiner, Schuebeler and Aeronaut it's worth the wait. My last post on the subject.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 07:38 PM
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Chris,
Did you see my reply last November to a post of yours saying you couldn't get a TF4000?
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...41&postcount=6

Just for the record...I like the Aero-Naut kits myself, and can vouch for their quality.
I accept that they exhibit prototypes and first production models at Nuernberg, often long before the final production version will be available. But that is the way it works with these epoxy models.
So I usually order mine a long time in advance (where it's a new model) and I tell my customers that when it arrives, that's when it's available...

This could deserve a thread of it's own, but there would be no end to it, it is endemic in the hobby trade as a whole.
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Old Jan 03, 2006, 08:03 PM
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Sure, by November the question was moot since the flying season was over. After that experience....
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 02:34 PM
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Ok
Cheers
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 02:48 PM
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On second thought - LOL! - What is the inner diameter of the motor tube? I had a flash, it's designed for the Tango which is bigger than the Lehners that Schubeler has designed his for, perhaps the tube would fit a 2" diamter ORK?

Thanks.
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 02:56 PM
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I got it for a tango, & will still use a Tango 45-08 when it's time, but I'll pull it out and drop you a PM 10 minutes. Norm
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 04:34 PM
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I measured the outer dia of the inner tube on a prototype of the Turbofan 4000 last year (with permission from aeronaut ) and it was 57 mm, if I remember correctly.
Minus wall thickness the inner dia. should be about 55-56 mm.

I really do not know why Daniel went down his route. A lot of people scratch their heads already, but that is Daniels problem.
May be he has a reason that we do not know of yet. Efficiency wise I canīt see it. Static thrust wise it is obvious, but that is not what Daniel is famous for.

Probably he will tell us one day.

The only idea I can see is that since big models have U/C rather than bungee, he judges static thrust to be more important, since efflux velocity can be gained with extra power or other design features.

Chris, can you tell me the exact outer dia. of the ORK preferably in mm?
In our new fan the motor will be a VERY tight fit, so I want to be sure that the ORK fits as does the Plettenberg 370.

Do you have a picture of the ORK? Any srews outside the can like with the endbell of the Plettenberg motor?

Oliver
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 05:04 PM
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St. Mary, Maryland, United States
Joined Dec 1996
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I'll find my caliper - it is just under 50mm I believe. No screws or projections on the case side, the can is machined from bar including the front plate then a rear end cap is pressed in place.
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 05:17 PM
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Dublin, Ireland
Joined Mar 2002
452 Posts
Hi Oliver, Chris,
I have a TF 4000 here - I remembered it as 45mm, probably from the motor size, but it actually measures as 56mm (by ruler, I don't have my caliper at home).
The 57mm might be outside of inner tube, but I can't be that exact at the moment.
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 05:21 PM
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Willich / Germany
Joined Nov 1998
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Thank you Chris,
so it seems to be about 1 mm smaller compared to the HP 370.
Should be easy to fill the gap.

Oliver
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 05:44 PM
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St. Mary, Maryland, United States
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I measured it as no larger than 51mm. Most likely exactly 50mm but a 51mm hole would definately swallow it. My calipers are plastic and old
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 05:56 PM
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Dublin, Ireland
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120 fan measurements

Does this help?
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Old Jan 04, 2006, 06:21 PM
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St. Mary, Maryland, United States
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Plenty big enough, it is a sensible size motor tube.
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