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Old Mar 03, 2005, 03:04 PM
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Wing Destroyer's Avatar
Glendale, Arizona
Joined May 2004
186 Posts
[QUOTE=birdofprey] Fields are lost nearly every day around the country.

Other more important things are lost everyday around the country, things that should be more focused on than a field, but i don't see anyone else arguing about it like we are arguing about this.

P.S. How do i post a quote? Thanks.
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 03:31 PM
Thermals the path to elevation
RotorCycle's Avatar
United States, AZ, Chandler
Joined Jul 2004
3,234 Posts
Well I went out to CB on Tuesday night, and there was the usual few planes flying and one wing which had a more than reasonable noise level (it was quiet). I held back and did not fly my Unicorn wing which is extremely quiet.

Today at lunch another wing was flying, and again it was a very reasonable noise level (mega brushless). So myself and one other speed-400 wing flyer flew several packs while countless joggers and what I thought was one city maintenance person drove by. What I wanted to happen was to have a conversation with the city to see what THEY would like to see happen, so we as flyers could establish come guildines and communicate it to the group.

Right now we're just walking on eggs and trying to be VERY respectful of residents which is GOOD, but there may be some people with quiet aircraft who are not flying at CB when they could be.

Our goal should be to understand this complaint and the real issue well enough to develop a solution that will make everyone happy.

Don't fly any airframe that is obviously a nuisance, or could be heard indoors across the street or in a car with the windows up. Don't fly over the flight line and freak out the joggers, and no 3-D or low level flight when kids, parents or dogs are walking in the field.

If we continue to display respect for the residents this whole firestorm will soon pass, and the residents will in turn see we are a reasonable and responsible group. They'll want us around to keep the riff-raff out of the park.

Lastly, is there a phone number or focal point with the Chandler Parks Service a citizen can call to see what the current city guidelines are for noise and e-flight rules in a city park. I don't want to call if one of the CASL club members already has a contact. It would be very nice to know what the current guidelines are so we're not even CLOSE to breaking any city ordinances.
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 05:45 PM
M0unt@in M0del$ minion
turbojoe's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2002
7,232 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorCycle
Don't fly any airframe that is obviously a nuisance, or could be heard indoors across the street or in a car with the windows up.
I know mine fits into this category and it won't fly again until I get a chance to make some mods to it to try to quiet it down. I don't think anyone has a beef against wings per se. It just happens that in this case it was a wing that brought about the complaint. It could have been a Slow Stick or a Crazy Max for all the complainer cares. He/she was not happy with the noise. As guests in their community we owe them the respect to keep the noise levels down to where they aren't bothered in their own homes. I know there are much noisier goings on in the area but they are not complaining about them. They are complaining about one plane. That person has a responsibility to do whatever it takes to make the residents happy rather than continue to irritate them through defiance. This makes the residents think ALL wings are noisy and dangerous when WE know this isn't the case.

Joe

Oh, if you want something worth getting mad about you should see the word I got a warning from the mod for.
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 08:06 PM
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asmokindeal's Avatar
Phoenix, Arizona
Joined Apr 2004
476 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojoe
As guests in their community we owe them the respect to keep the noise levels down to where they aren't bothered in their own homes.
That sounds good on paper but in reallity there are a lot of people living just East and just West of Sky Harbor Airport. These people get use to the noise.

You arent guaranteed peace and quite...especially if you move next to an airport, park, freeway, stadium, racetrack, dog kennel etc... A certain amount of responsibility falls on the home owner who bought a home right next to the airport or park.

Some people are wimps with little to do but rain on other peoples parades.

Is there nothing we can do other than point fingers and walk on eggshells and hope, just hope and hope some more and then hope a litte before we cry ourselves to sleep that our precious flying site doesn't get shut down?

I was out there flying today for HOURS and nobody told me I was scaring them or annoying them. Nobody came and told me to go away or that it wasn't allowed.

Yes fields do get shut down all over the country but does that surprise anybody? Its a big country you know.

Rich
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 08:42 PM
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asmokindeal's Avatar
Phoenix, Arizona
Joined Apr 2004
476 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdofprey
BTW, The Arizona Model Aviators field had to impose noise limits on aircraft due to a resident more than a mile (5280+ft) away that was filing complaints with the city and county.
Justin
It sounds like it doesn't matter what we do If some retard lives within 1 miles of our flying site that is particularly sensetive we will lose our site. First it will be noise, then it will be safety then it will be privacy with them putting camera's on them there fancy planes and all. It never ends.

We need to build a case through petitions or something along those lines that the vast majority of the neighbors couldn't care less and that it is just a couple of morons that are looking for a bone to pick and are unreasonable.

These are the type of people that sue McDonalds because they have butter fingers and spilled a coffee in their lap, leave their children in parked cars with the windows rolled up in the middle of summer and leave their baby unsupervised in a bathtub full of water to go check the mail.
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Last edited by asmokindeal; Mar 03, 2005 at 08:52 PM.
Old Mar 03, 2005, 08:44 PM
The Magician.
birdofprey's Avatar
Lucas, Kansas
Joined Nov 2002
1,849 Posts
Rich,

The problem is that there are MANY people out there that have nothing better to do than complain about others.

Letís use your example of Sky Harbor International Airport for a moment... Sky Harbor, when first built, was out at the edge of NOTHING. People were drawn to move in close to the airport for MANY reasons. Shortly there after, the complaints about noise began. They continue to this day! There is an on going effort to shut the airport down by many people that moved in next to the airport decades after it was founded, and was carrying millions of passengers in large multi-engine jet liners. This has caused the airport to adopt noise abatement procedures (restricted no fly zones) for different conditions. One of the new procedures includes routing aircraft over a part of Phoenix that is called the Ahwatukee Foothills. When this first started, I was both a resident of the area, as well as employed in the area. The aircraft were routed over the area at more than 15,000 Ft...MANY residents in the area went CRAZY about the noise, and began filling complaints with the city. Funny thing is it would not even register on a Db meter. It was a faint background noise that would be lost if a Lexus drove by slowly. None the less, the residents in the area were able to get the flight path changed, and some were (and still are) working to have the airport closed. This has nearly been accomplished on several occasions.

So, to make a long story short, yes people will complain, and how we handle it has the most to do with what the outcome will be. Fighting back against the city and its residents will only generate animosity between the parties. It will then be much easier for the city to simply say GET OUT than to try to work with us and the local residents to find a reasonable solution.

We flew in Mesa for years, and never once did we directly hear of a complaint. Simply one day, a park ranger stopped in and said that the park rules had been changed and we were no longer allowed to fly in the parks. When we enquired with the city, we found that they did indeed have a log of complaints from local residents about the silent aircraft, but these were never shared with us so that we could work out a solution. The city simply decided to say GET OUT! No warning.

At least in this case, the City of Chandler is willing to talk and try to make this work. Letís not blow it for everyone by grandstanding, and flexing our muscle. I promise you that the muscle of the local residents and the city makes us look like a 98 pound weakling.


Justin
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 08:57 PM
Registered User
Long Beach, CA
Joined Jun 2004
24 Posts
Club or AMA

There is a flying field in Long Beach CA that is part of a city park. At one time a club was formed and the only way you could fly there was to pay $35.00 and become a member or else the club members would chase you away. I don't know exactly what happened over time but now the field is open to anyone who has an AMA card. (You don't have to be a club member to fly there). I think the city just wants to know that there is some form of insurance coverage in the event of an accident so they don't get sued. (I didn't know this until recently that AMA is "Supplemental Insurance" if you get sued and the suit exceeds the available insurance you may already have, the AMA coverage starts where the other insurance stops).

As far as the locals at CB are concerned, all the noise going on there is ambient to them by now. They're used to the noise generation that surrounds their environment to some degree. The noise made by the wing's is different than the ambient maybe it's more like a mosquito invading their space.

At any rate good luck with your solution. The club thing might work for you guys but the situation out here evolved to AMA membership only.

Peace
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 08:59 PM
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asmokindeal's Avatar
Phoenix, Arizona
Joined Apr 2004
476 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdofprey
I promise you that the muscle of the local residents and the city makes us look like a 98 pound weakling.
Justin
My point is that it is very possible that it is only 1,2 possibly 3 people in the whole community that have a problem with your planes. If we got the support of the other 1000 residents wouldn't that count for something?

Then it wouldn't be us against the local residents it would be a small handfull of busy bodies against the entire community.
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 09:13 PM
Registered User
United States, AZ
Joined Aug 2004
1,630 Posts
I agree rich. totally, thanks, ryan
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 09:39 PM
rwp
rwp
rwp's Avatar
Joined Nov 2003
504 Posts
AMA Insurance

Most fields require AMA membership for the Insurance. Are you sure it is only "Supplemental Insurance" and not Primary Insurance. According to AMA website the insurance includes:
SERVICE
Liability Coverage for the Operation of Model Aircraft, Boats, Cars, and Rockets

$2,500,000 Comprehensive General Liability Protection for model activities for members, clubs, site owners, and sponsors
$25,000 Accident/Medical Coverage for members
$10,000 Maximum Accidental Death Coverage for members
$1,000 Fire, Theft, and Vandalism Coverage for members
Primary Site Owner Insurance ‑ up to $5,000,000 each location
Anybody have a clarification on this?
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Old Mar 03, 2005, 11:01 PM
Thermals the path to elevation
RotorCycle's Avatar
United States, AZ, Chandler
Joined Jul 2004
3,234 Posts
I was out there today with Rich and about 10 other flyers when a City of Chandler park ranger pulled up. I put down my transmitter and intended to walk over and just ask him how things were in general, and he pulled away after less than 30-seconds. It apeared he may have just wanted to do a quick-check.

We had two wings out in clear sight and one in the air, which is why I wanted to ask if we were fine with the equipment and noise.

For now I think we should let this firestorm die down, and just continue to practice good judgement at the field. All three wings were reasonably quiet, and one wing had just completed the mod to increase the gap between the prop and trailing edge. It was noticably quieter.

We also had two people walk up and start a conversation about re-entering the electric RC hobby. They were fascinated with the power and duration of the electrics, and the fact you could just go to the park and fly. Today was a good day for the hobby at CB. So let's keep the two bad days in the last two years in perspective.
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Old Mar 04, 2005, 12:12 PM
Noise......
Queen Creek AZ
Joined Jul 2004
259 Posts
When I moved out into Queen Creek I moved with the understanding that I would, at some point; have to listen to farm equipment just behind my house, have crop dusters spraying fields on 3 sides of my neighborhood (I wanna ride with those guys!) in the middle of the night, have to listen for aircraft on final to Gateway, drive 30 miles to get EVERYWHERE (still do) and deal with the occasional microburst. Farm equipment doesn't bother me at all, I love me some crop dusters, I get to see all kinds of oddball aircraft coming in and out of Williams (5 miles away) and once you get used to it, a 30 mile drive into town isn't so bad.

Now they are building houses behind me, and I have to listen to hammers and saws from sunup till I leave for work. Yeah, it is annoying, but at least it is steady. You know what will jerk me up from a dead sleep? The horn on the freakin' roach coach.
It is out of the ordinary, it is high pitched, and it seems louder than the KC135's that on occasion come over the top of my house at two in the morning so low I can see the crew.

Personaly, I love the sound of an unholy fast wing. I love the whine of the DD prop whipping air at a billion RPM. I love the sound it makes on glide from altitude just cutting through the air. Rich, you and Chris both know the first thing I say when I hear one of your wings whipping through is that "I like the Scary Noise".

People are far too likely to whine about things that they shouldn't these days. "My house smells like manure", "That crop duster is scaring me, why do they fly at night?"
The answer to those questions are usualy based in common sense, and could be answered by those asking them if they realized that the world did not revolve around them.

Unfortunately, all it takes is for a couple of ignorant mouth breathers to whine to the City, and rather than do any work at all to find out if this person is just a crackpot who complains about dumb things all the time, the City just tells them "Ok, rather than listen to this goober (member of the constituency) in here whining all the time, we will simply ban airplanes. Poof, another spot to fly gone, more discord amongst flyers ("scale guys" mad that the "wing guys" got the place banned, "wing guys" mad that the "scale guys" are blaming them) and a general crappy situation all around.

I know that I have no vested interest in CB, but I also know that if a site can be established there in Chandler, then maybe if I write enough letters, a site can be set up here in QC. For now I come in to town to fly on Sunday's and visit with like minded people. I also fly in my driveway. Would I fly a wing that could pull a Ton plus? Nope. Not because I couldn't space wise, but because my neighbors would be banging on my door to make me stop, and I wouldn't want to listen to them whine.


Mike (the other one)
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Old Mar 04, 2005, 06:06 PM
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TheX's Avatar
United States, TX, Austin
Joined Sep 2004
3,152 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorCycle
I held back and did not fly my Unicorn wing which is extremely quiet.
Did you hold back because it was a wing?
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Old Mar 04, 2005, 09:58 PM
Thermals the path to elevation
RotorCycle's Avatar
United States, AZ, Chandler
Joined Jul 2004
3,234 Posts
Right - I didn't fly the Unicorn wing because the day after the complaint a city employee told helisfreak not to fly wings "for now". Apparently the complaint was about a loud wing, and the city employee did not know how to establish a noise level rule, so thought it prudent not to fly wings. So we were respectful of the neighborhood not wanting to let this thing spiral out of control.

After a few days we took steps to mod all the wings by moving the motors back or removing EPP foam on the wing trailing edge to quiet the prop noise. We've been flying three days now and the noise level is noticeably lower.
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Old Mar 04, 2005, 10:04 PM
M0unt@in M0del$ minion
turbojoe's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2002
7,232 Posts
Good. So it does make a big difference giving the prop more clearance. I plan to do it to the MiniBOP. It looks like the weather is going to be lousy this weekend so I'll spend it working on and finishing planes. After I drag my carcass out of bed around noon that is. I NEED this weekend to recuperate from work!


Joe
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