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Old Mar 15, 2002, 06:18 PM
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If you are thinking of getting a VoyagerE, read this:

In my opinion, the drive system is the most poorly designed of all the common electric helis. The two stage gear system has an effective number of teeth of 350. This and limit on the number of cells which can be in the battery paks, precludes using any common motor, brushed or brushless, at its optimal operating rpm because of the limited number of large size (greater than 20 teeth) pinions available.

Many are using the Hacker B40-8L with 10 cells and a 15-17 tooth pinion. This combo would be much more effecient with a pinion of 35 teeth! However, you could get the same power at much lower current if you could boost the cell count to 16. At 10 cells of sub C's the pak is already 8.5" long. And it's 4 inches between the battery mounts! If you use the 4/5 sub C's (CP1700), you could get up to 12 cells in the same length. Neither of these gets the voltage high enough for efficient motor use when using a reasonable pinion (20 teeth or less). The other option is to use AA cells. A pak of 16 of these is 8" long and they are available up to 1800 mah (NiMH). 16 cells would allow flight times approaching that of the ECO 8.

The other problem is pak charging. If you go to a pak of more than 8 cells, you will need a large pak charger and it will be DC powered so you will have to charge with the car or get a separate battery or a AC/DC power supply. If you have these then there will be no problem. If you don't, plan on spending upwards of $110 or so if you can scrounge a battery.

If I had known these facts before I bought my Voyager, I would have opted for the Logo 10 which doesn't pretend to run on car battery paks!
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Old Mar 15, 2002, 06:32 PM
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I think it comes down to doing some research before you buy. I never intended to use the stock motor or 7 cells when I bought the Voyager.

A double reduction gear seems to work fine. It may not be the best, but the EP and the Century helis use it OK. Sure it has more loss, but is more compact.

ALL of the top line chargers use 12v DC input. I would rather be able to charge 30 cells at the field, than just 7-8 at home.

I have done loops and lots of FFF with the 8L and 10 cells. Has lots of power and decent duration.
In fact my best flight was 9 minutes with 8 nimh cells.

How do you figure a 35t pinion into the mix?

Car battery packs are 6 cells, somethimes 7, which will fly the stock V. Just not very well.

I don't really understand where you are coming from? All the matters have been adressed here and on other BB for some time.

Am I missing something or do you have a problem with it you can't work out?


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Old Mar 15, 2002, 06:36 PM
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Hello Hank

Im sorry to hear that you are not getting along with your heli.

As for design, I think the engineers at JR designed the Voyager around 7-8 cell. Remember, the Voyager is heavy so it is to your advantabe to use 8 cell instead of 10 to keep the weight down. This would also explain the 2 stage gear reduction; they want you to use hotter motors that require less cells.

Just wondering, why are you using AA cells? The reason I ask is I have heard that these cells have a higher internal resistance than
that sub c cells.

How long did you plan on your Voyager flying? I only expect 8 mins max(in the wind) from my Eco 8, but I am rnning at a really high head speed(1600+ rpm).

"Many are using the Hacker B40-8L with 10 cells and a 15-17 tooth pinion. This combo would be much more effecient with a pinion of 35 teeth!"

Well, if you go to 16 cells(in series?) you will need a motor with a low Kv because the rpms increase for every volt you add.

Well, Ill let LRVCFlyer take care of the rest of this, he is the Voyager guru

I am not a Voyager owner, but I have friend home that are hard to impress and he flew a Voyager and liked it. Im not sure of the the set up though.

I take it you have flown you Voyager, what type of flying do you do(crusing, mild acro, hot acro)?

Have you tried 8 cell CP 2400 packs? I think they are your best bet.

Carlo
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Old Mar 15, 2002, 07:52 PM
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I wouldnt go out of my way like you to discourage one from buying a Voyager. I flown most and think this is one fine flying heli. Its also built well, parts are resonable and easy to find and there is alot of online help for it. We can always "What if" and " Why" any heli to death. Sell it and get a Logo.
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Old Mar 15, 2002, 08:12 PM
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Fred, you're right that this information is available. Its just not in one spot. I'm just trying to help potential heli owners.

Maybe I'm resentful that I'll have to spend an additional $110 minimum when my stock motor wears out, for a battery charger and power supply.

Fortunately, I have an upgrade path. Its my old 1010/2Y which should do very well on 16 cells. I'm expecting only 103 watts needed.

Carlos, you heard right about the AA's. But if you limit the current to 12 amps by running more cells, they do alright. They presently have the highest capacity per ounce of all cell types: 1800mah/oz!

JIMJAM: I didn't say I didn't like it!
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Old Mar 15, 2002, 08:32 PM
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Trust me, I know exactly what you are going through. There is no " best setup for everyone". I tried getting into building a few LMH helis and converting them for sale. WHAT A NIGHTMARE!! I received alot of emails from enthusiastic guys right up to the point when the total cost was mentioned. I could almost hear their jaws hit the ground. The majority wanted to get the "best" setup right from the start. Which is smart but also means $$$ Spending more for a brushless motor than what the heli cost just didnt go over well. So most either didnt email me back or I saw them pop up on the boards here with a million and one questions about their cheaper brush setups. I now understand why Lite Machines and others go as cheap as possible. STICKER SHOCK discourages all but those who understand whats involved. Just like LOGO offereing the auto gear separate. I think JR made a mistake by forcing you to buy the motor/controller. They should at least offered it separate. Unfortunately it comes down to guys like us who have to open our wallets and experiment to find the right combo.
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Old Mar 15, 2002, 08:42 PM
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Hi Hank, You shouldnt be very upset with spending the extra money on a charger. In This hobby, a Very good quality peak detecting charger is really a must have item. Perhaps you werent hoping to get one this soon, but down the road, I Cannot see anyone in this hobby without a decent charger.

I have a Robbe Infinity 2 charger and I love it. I also have an Astro 112d, and before that, a 110d.

I love the Robbe because of its extra features such as Discharging, and cycling.

FMA has a similiar charger for much less than my robbe, that people seam to love on this board.
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Old Mar 15, 2002, 11:08 PM
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Whew!!!!!!!

Hank, Glad to see this is not a "rag on the product" post and just a be aware issue.

If they come out with the V without a motor, it will be much better!
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Old Mar 16, 2002, 04:13 AM
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Wow Hank, why all the negativity?

<In my opinion, the drive system is the most poorly designed of all the common electric helis. The two stage gear system has an effective number of teeth of 350. This and limit on the number of cells which can be in the battery paks, precludes using any common motor, brushed or brushless, at its optimal operating rpm because of the limited number of large size (greater than 20 teeth) pinions available.>

Firstly, the heli flies quite well on the stock motor and 8 cells. It will loop, roll, fly inverted and more with the right flying skills and the proper set up. Actually, the included motor is running fairly well on its effceincy mark - I did the math a LONG time ago and the motor was around 70% effeceint on 8 cells and a 15 tooth pinion. For a brushed car motor, that is VERY good! What more do you want? Not to mention, you can find 32 pitch pinions all the way to 40 teeth at various small parts places which fit the 1/8" shafts. I have a buddy using a 40 tooth 32 pitch pinion on a very odd motor/cell set up in a Voyager - and he said he could have gotten any pinion he needed too! I think that is a poor arguement for the 2 stage gearing - firstly, it actually INCLUDES and auto hub set up. This is something the ECO 8 and Logo 10 require as hop ups. No to mention, using a motor pinion AND a seperate pinion for the tail on the ECO 8 isnt a walk in the park - sure, you can optimize set up, but the Voyager 2 stage gearing works great with the right motor, tail included!

<Many are using the Hacker B40-8L with 10 cells and a 15-17 tooth pinion. This combo would be much more effecient with a pinion of 35 teeth!>

Huh?! My motor puts out a TON of power and barely gets warm (8L, 16 tooth pinion, 10 cells)! I would say its running efficiently, wouldnt you? Putting a 35 tooth pinion on it would give a heaspeed over 3000 RPMs, that makes no sense. With the 16 tooth pinion on 10 cells I can max out around 1750 RPMs - plenty for VERY powerful flying and aerobatics!

<However, you could get the same power at much lower current if you could boost the cell count to 16. At 10 cells of sub C's the pak is already 8.5" long. And it's 4 inches between the battery mounts! If you use the 4/5 sub C's (CP1700), you could get up to 12 cells in the same length. Neither of these gets the voltage high enough for efficient motor use when using a reasonable pinion (20 teeth or less). The other option is to use AA cells. A pak of 16 of these is 8" long and they are available up to 1800 mah (NiMH). 16 cells would allow flight times approaching that of the ECO 8.>

This statement makes no sense to me. So my motor barely gets warm, flies for 5 minutes on 10 cells CP1700s with LOTS of power for aerobatics and more at around 1700+ RPMs and it is not efficient? Why not? Sure seems to be working well to me! And yes, that is with a smaller pinion than 20 teeth and on only 10 cells...Im lost here I guess. Are you saying you want PURE duration? Then the JR Voyager should NOT have been your choice! A simply bit of research and you would have know the lighter ECO 8 would have been MUCH better for this purpose!

<The other problem is pak charging. If you go to a pak of more than 8 cells, you will need a large pak charger and it will be DC powered so you will have to charge with the car or get a separate battery or a AC/DC power supply. If you have these then there will be no problem. If you don't, plan on spending upwards of $110 or so if you can scrounge a battery.>

The MRC Super Braind 959 does 1-8 cells, NiCad, NiMH with a digital readout AND is AC/DC for $48. That means you can charge 8 cells AC without an expensive charger - not to mention, this is an EXCELLENT charger that performs flawlessly! Besides, this problem relates to ALL e-helis. Whether you have a Piccolo, Hornet, ECO 8, Logo 10/16/20, you will NEED a good charger. The only place you can get away "cheap" is with a Lite Machines Corona flying on 7 cell RC car packs with a $20 RC car charger. I see in no way how this is a negative for the Voyager E. If you had a Logo 10 youd need a charger for 10-14 cells as well.

<If I had known these facts before I bought my Voyager, I would have opted for the Logo 10 which doesn't pretend to run on car battery paks!>

Im not sure how much of this is fact in all honesty. Your first statements of needing 16 cells, 35 tooth pinions, etc, etc make no sense. This heli is 100% proven as a fully aerobatic heli on 10 cells and a 16 tooth pinion! Yes, this does require a brushless motor to do so, but with 15 minutes of research time you wouldve known that. How many posts do you see where guys actually use the stock motor in the heli for long? Very few. And no, it does not pretend to fly on an RC car motor and packs - it DOES fly on them! I can send pics of a stock Voyager flying on the stock motor and 8 cells inverted a few feet off the deck - and no, it is NOT a doctored photo!

Im not sure what this post was aimed for. To me, it makes little sense as a bashing to the actual heli. Im not trying to be rude - honestly, thats the last thing Im trying to do. But put yourself in the shoes of the current Voyager owners - better yet, someone who may have JUST bought a Voyager. You made them think twice about it, which I dont think they need to do. Hands down, the Voyager is the BEST engineered heli in the 7-8 class. Yes, it is better built than an ECO 8 - lighter, no. Does it fly better than an ECO 8 - yes and no. I can get into that, but I dont think I need to.

The best I can guess is that youre not happy with your flight times. How much flight time do you want? The 9L motor and 10 3000 cells can give 10 minutes on a Voyager E. The ECO 8 I used to fly on 10 2000s got near 10 minutes on a brushless motor. Im sorry, but I doubt you will ever find in the next few years an e-heli capable of more than 10 minutes of flight time on an RC car motor and 7 or 8 cells. Is that what you want?

Jason
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Old Mar 16, 2002, 07:31 AM
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R/C manufacturers are getting better especially in the electric area which is relativly new. JRs marketing propably went out and talked to people and decided everyone is tired of searching for a motor/controller and want to get a heli kit with a workable setup. I dont know how many years ago all this took place but I know brushless was very expensive and their were not many to choose from. Had they reccomended a $300 brushless setup, most consumers would have laughed. Take a look at Logo. Now they list 3 different motor,controller and battery setups depending on what you want to do. Lite Machines even listened to everyone and jumped into electrics.
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Old Mar 16, 2002, 12:43 PM
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Jason: I feel thoroughly chastised (although I did say it was my opinion)! Actually, all I complained about was the gearing. I believe it makes it unnessarily difficult to upgrade.

You misunderstood my statement about the charger. I said you need more than an 8 cell charger for more than an 8 cell pak.

In my above diatribe, the 35 tooth pinion mentioned should have been 25, which should give you almost an extra minute of duration. I apologize for the error.

Actually, I CAN use my Astro 112D 8 cell charger to charge my 16 cell paks! All it takes is a extra Dean's Ultra connector. With it I can use (for the stock motor) and charge the pak as parallel 8 cell paks. If I later want to use it as a 16 cell series pak all I need is a shorting plug.

I guess I'm just a congenital cheapskate. I hate to throw away the stock motor without at least using one set of brushes. And I hate the idea of not being able to reuse battery paks.
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Old Mar 16, 2002, 01:42 PM
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You will have a hard time pulling the power you need from those AA packs without destroying them.

The stock setup pulls like 25-30 amps, and the BL pulls 15-20 as the norm.

It is also not wise to charge packs in parallel, they should be charged in series.

Nothing wrong with saving $. I still have the stock motor and ESC sitting unused.
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Old Mar 16, 2002, 01:56 PM
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Fred: I've been using the same AA paks (4 of them) for the whole time I've flown my eLMH. It draws 11 to 12 amps. I must have well over a hundred flights. I get 6+ minutes on the 1500mah units.

My Voyager paks are also AA's and I'm drawing the same current from each cell that I do on the eLMH: 11 to 12 amps (ie. 24 total).

I've been charging the parallel paks with my Astro 112D without complaint. I don't understand your reasoning about not charging paks in parallel. My camera charger charges up to 4 AA's at a time and they are all in parallel.

BTW, how much do you want for your stock motor?
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Old Mar 16, 2002, 02:36 PM
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Hello Hank

Do you really want to use you AA packs on you Voyager? The Voyager is a larger heli than the LMH and weighs more. I can understand why you AA packs work in your LMH; I believe you have lightened you LMH too.

If I were you I would get a sub c sized battery pack(8 cell CP2400). Give it a try; Im sure you will love it after you use it.

www.eflightpacks.com $42

Use your brushed setup untill it dies and then go brushless. I too see no point in waisting a good motor.

Charging packs in parallel is cool, but you also increase the mah you need to charge, but you also increase the ammount of current you can put into the batteries(I think). How long does it take to charge your 16 cell. I assume you are running those in parallel too.

Carlo
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Old Mar 16, 2002, 03:16 PM
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The chargers we use are designed to read the voltage in a pack and peak it in terms of number of cells. By doing that in parallel, the reading is false as one bad or weak cell will not allow proper charging.
Charging in series balances the cells better.

AA cells will give up a 10-12 amp draw and the voltage will make up the diff in your setup.

The camera charger does not charge at all like our peak chargers do.

All I can say, if it works stick with it for now.

I will take $60 for motor and ESC.
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