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Old Sep 27, 2007, 10:59 AM
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looks like i got here late!
have just discovered advances in micro r/c that works!
(cessna 210 and air hogs stuff)having a blast!

wish i would have kept all my small rubber scale(gave them to friends kids to destroy)--got tired of hitting trees every time one was trimed right!
then worked up to 1/4 scale r/c

have not read all post but would like to help with the tissue covering of compound curves--someone may have posted this method already--to much to read.

dont shrink tissue around compound curves--strech it!in one peice!no cutting!

how i do it.
dope the frame work about 3 coats on perimeter--sand in between coats.
put tissue on dry using thinner and small brush to attach covering to frame work--when you get to compound area like wing tips use a cotton swab diped in water to wet area to be stretched and then gently stretch until it fits the shape and then use the thinner and brush to attach covering--while its wet.
small wrinkles will dissapear as it dries and shrinks.the whiteness caused by the thinner/dope/water will dissapear over night.
2 coats of sig lite coat(low shrink) thinned about 50% if memeory is correct.

this method came from a plan book that covers the method very well--with pics to!
book also has plans 12 ww2 fighters in this size range.
the book is flying scale models of ww2 and was published by model builder in 1974.

hope to be building micro r/cs this winter!

David
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 12:06 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Yes, David, there is a LOT of information recorded in these (many) pages. The sticky thread at the top of the forum ('Best Place to Start') has broken out a lot of the major topics and supplied links to threads, tutorials, etc. that help fill in the missing pieces.

Since the gear has become so small, a lot of old rubber scale models are now perfect for yard an garden flying. One nice thing is that many of the old classic design kits are still available, often laser-cut. Penn Valley Hobbies has a wide selection of stick and tissue models that will work as R/C. Almost as many of the classic S&T designs are available as plans. Don't worry about the ones you gave away; you probably over-built them anyway, and can do better today!

Cross-over between R/C and FF disciplines surprises both sides. S&T modelers freak when they see a R/C electric model the same size and weight as their rubber powered FF versions, and the FFers techniques are what help the R/Cers get there. Look close, past the Depron, CF and film, and you'll see laminated wing tip and tails, sliced ribs, even 70's Walt Mooney's peanut designs, and other classic FF techniques in modern micro R/C.

SmallFlyingArts.com has a pretty active bulletin board/forum, made up largely of FF, indoor, scale, stick&tissue builders (except for the ones I have led to the DarkSide), and since they fly FF, all their models do indeed fly...

So build away, and remember - without the rubber band, you can lighten up the main structure now!
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 01:44 PM
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Hi Mike
have been lookin at your work---nice.

the rubber power stuff i had was all sig contest 2lb and even triangulation done with thread instead of balsa--mostly underbuilt in intrest of weight reduction.

had a wildcat-beach bonanza-and davis da-5(?)that was extremly light--usualy torque from rubber would twist fuse!had a few that colasped from tension.

used to be c/l combat flier--built lightweight explodeamatics ---life was about 5-10 flights--better with spruce spars.i like light!although some of my larger scale stuff is in 20-30lb range.

planes i havent seen mentioned here that would be good(area/ span)are nesmith cougar--whitman tailwind/bonzo/buster/v--davis.
all low aspect ratio-all make good rubber and should be great for mini r/c.

this(mini r/c)will let me combine all i have learned from ff scale-r/c scale--control line combat rat and speed and stunt into this area and forming depron looks like something i would like to try and use some of my plug/mold ideas i developed while building bodies for full sized formula cars-plaster/clay/bondo/sheetmetal.
lots to read on all these subjects!!

must finish Kurtis indy car and detasamaso formula restos so i can build serious again!

the work that everyone here has done is fantastic!
David
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 03:10 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
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David,

From your list of 'must-builds', I will lay money that you have some old Model Builder Magazines from the early 70's laying around somewhere. If not, I can send you scans of the Cougar, Bonzo, Tailwind, and since you seem to like racers, a Jeep and/or a few others. I do like reading over the articles and note where Walt Mooney and Bill Hannan challenge the rest of the world to put R/C gear in one of these! Ha! Here ya' go, Walt & Bill!

Since you like to scratch build, here is a link to Profili's site: http://www.profili2.com/eng/default.htm
Profili is a great wing rib developing program; handles washout, spars, building tabs, lightening holes, plots performance with/without turbulators, etc. There is a link to IsiPlot, a great plans scaling program, listed on the above page; pull up a graphic, define distance bewteen any two points, and it scales it across multiple pages very nicely. Those two programs are $15 or so to register them, and with some 3-views should keep you busy all winter.

One thought in passing... Low aspect rtaio wings are really best suited to span-limited contest classes where you want to pack maximum area into any span. My personal experience is that low aspect ratios will get upside down a lot easier and quicker than a longer, narrower wing will. I believe it has to do with stall propagation at a wing tip; on a 4:1 AR wing, wing tip stall onset actually involves most of the wing area. You can subdue that with washout, but then you are defeating the purpose of carrying all that wing area you tried to maximize.

Even biplanes, with the same span and same combined area as a low aspect ratio model, act in a more civilized manner than chunky monoplanes . Stalls are easier, turns are smoother, and life is good. If you put peanut Chamber Maids, Bonzos, Tailwinds, and/or Shoestrings in the air at once, well, you simply have a brawl
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 03:17 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
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In regards to heat forming Depron, the fabled 'Zepron', a leathery appearing, virgin unrolled version of Depron, is supposed to be better for heat forming; the rolled stuff has already developed a hard shell over the foam core.

Durobatics heat forms much easier than Depron.
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 03:18 PM
Build it again, Sam!
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Germany
Joined Oct 2004
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Hi Mike:

Sorry for the question, but I just have seen this thread that started 2004 the first time!

Very interesting!!!

But is the built finished ( start was 3 years ago) or is it still going on or is it a kind of revival???

please comment!

Thanks Hansjoerg
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 03:52 PM
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yes Mike--thats what was meant for the span rule classes(that what this was right?).
I am a high aspect ratio kinda guy---except when high roll rate is wanted.

have looked at airfoil plotting programs but down load time is to long on my 26.4mbs connection.

probably design own with pencil/paper and most important an eraser!

and just think--by the time the program down loads and then i learn to use it I could have drawn plans for 10 or more by hand!

wash out dosnt hurt as the aoa is simply more(about 1/2 of wash out would be good guess?) drag is probably slightly higher.

although shouldnt be need for wash out unless wing loading is high and then only for low speed and high aoa.

scale ww2 fighter=washout
scale aerobatic=no washout
depends on wing loading and landing ability of pilot(speed)

wonder if it matters at these reynolds numbers?

headed for lumber yard to see if they have depron/zepron and need to check out the durobatics you mentioned.

have built mooneys and others stuff from m.b.
burned a pick up truck load of m.b.==m.a.==and others from 65 on a while back(needed room)think i saved some of the more interesting plans.

love art chesters jeep--have one in1/4 scale at 5.5lbs with a st .60-FAST!
and will do loops as tight as a c/l stunter(i love carbonfiber !)
It refuses to snap though so no lumchevacks but very high roll rate!

my next 30s racer will probably be the schoonfelt firecracker--Keith ryder r-4(?)

David
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 04:53 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
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Harpye, the cook-up is as over as it can get - that was on the DWE forum, and they went belly up. It was a shame, too, because we had some nice models come out of it. There were WW I fighters all the way to CD-sized Geobats. I built a Peck Baby Ace. I learned that glue-stick and dope do not mix; dope's persistence wins over glue stick eventually...

There was a Walt Mooney Cook-up. I built two of his models. It is documented here: http://www.smallflyingarts.com/cgi-b...num=1163983655

We had a 24-Hour challenge - to start at midnight and finish before the next midnight. I took a few extra hours to get mine R/C model done, but all the rest were FF

There is another R/C cook-up going on at: http://www.smallflyingarts.com/cgi-b...num=1189541085

It's the "What Am I, Nuts?" Cook-up - anything from pistachio, peanut, walnut or cocnut is welcome, but the focus is on pressing modelers towards setting new, smaller goals.
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 07:56 PM
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Mike
cool clipped monocupe!
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Old Sep 27, 2007, 08:17 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
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Thanx.

Cook-ups are fun, you learn some new ways to do things, and watching what everyone else is doing pushes you to new levels. Different view points focusing on the same problem(s) usually come up with several good approaches. Also, building in the public view makes you look at neatness in a whole new light!
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Old Sep 28, 2007, 08:37 AM
Build it again, Sam!
Harpye's Avatar
Germany
Joined Oct 2004
4,091 Posts
I'm a too bad pilot for those little gems ... all I did in that scale area were some warbirds from the late WWII ; Spit; FW190; He219; Ju52 and such.. no sticks and glue ... just foam.....


But very nice models!!!!



Hansjoerg
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Old Oct 10, 2007, 12:18 PM
LEO THE LION TO THE KING
SOUTH CAROLINA U.S.A.
Joined Oct 2004
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can you use depron? i notise these al almose tissue and balsa..?tom
also when's deadline?
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Old Oct 10, 2007, 12:21 PM
in persuit of low wing loading
Gordon Johnson's Avatar
Boston, Mass
Joined May 2001
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Quote:
also when's deadline?
From Post #383 above, only a few posts back.
Quote:
Harpye, the cook-up is as over as it can get - that was on the DWE forum, and they went belly up.
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