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Old Jan 24, 2005, 07:52 PM
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
Tim Wolff's Avatar
United States, MI, Temperance
Joined Sep 2002
6,586 Posts
Looks great Mike!

I failed (or simply refused) to plan for pushrod exits. I think I will use a small slit to get them in place and finish them off with a tissue renforcement..we'll see. I still may use pull-pull.

I hope my servos are far enough forward. But I do have a pair of 210 mAh cells for the nose. If it needs nose weight, it might as well be batteries. The switch location will fun too. It's tight, even with the Falcons in the cockpit.

So many things I'm trying for the first time on this model. What do you suggest to mask off the doped tissue. I intend to spray the sheet wood up front with acrylic paint. I swear I'll kill myself if the tissue comes off with the mask. I was going to try post-it notes??

A pair of micro P-38 showed up today too. These things are going to be trouble. I hear them calling..."We're soooo cool". "It will only take a day or to two get one ready to fly". "You don't have to paint us, we don't care".
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Old Jan 24, 2005, 09:14 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Tim,

I used printer paper for the masks and drew the curves. Them I put down removable doubles sided tape over the pencil marks and cut away the part where paint went, Since I had doped the covering the tissue was fairly strong and the stick-um on the tape was easy to get off. Just start at one edge and pull the paper back over itself (don,'t pull up! - pull it back). That way, just an edge is getting all the pull.

Another masking material is 'frisket paper' (got some at the crafts store in town). It is not cheap, but it is meant for this sort of thing. I'm going to use that next time to see how well it works...

I know I need to keep the gear forwasr. The 2 x 170 LiPolys won't fit inside the cowl once the motor is in there. They may go part way in, but thats all. I was surprised at how much the tissue and thinned dope added to the weight. I don't think the paint was all that heavy. I just looked at it and discovered that one wing developed a warp as it dried after the painting. I will have to sue some solvent to loosen one of the struts, steam the warp out and reattach the strut. Better to have that happen now rather than discover it when I go to fly it. That makes me feel more like re-investing in more colors of the RA MicroLite - It has never warped a surface yet. My granddaughter got me a Peck Prairie Bird for Christmas; it is getting the MicroLite treatment!
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 08:14 PM
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
Tim Wolff's Avatar
United States, MI, Temperance
Joined Sep 2002
6,586 Posts
Well, I sat down in the shop and prepped the airbrush and compressor. I then realized that I don't have any idea what to do with these parts after I spray them. Also took the time to check the wing for warps since Mike mentioned it. Sure enough, it's a mess.

First of all. Should I wet the wing again and pin it down flat to remove the warps before I dope the tissue? Is about a 1/16" or so of washout a good idea while I'm at it? I'm working on the assumption that the dope is not going to shink the tissue much if at all.

Second. What do I do with a freshly doped piece? The fuse is just going to sit on an inverted paper cup, but should the wing and tail be pinned down? Exactly how can it be pinned down without spoiling the finish, or should there not be enough dope to stick to anything? I'm really at a loss....

Checked the Small Flying Arts forum and didn't run across anything this basic. Lots of advanced methods and ideas. But, stuff like "you can pin them down if you want" Isn't a lot of help. More experience in tissue would prob. have been a good idea before a project this involved.

Edit: Re-wetted the wings half at a time and weighted them down over 3 popsicle sticks with a 1/16 of washout in the tip. Worked like a charm. Shockingly easy to do.

I just may skip indoor flying tonight to work on this. Still open to any suggestions.
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Last edited by tiberius; Jan 26, 2005 at 07:56 AM.
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Old Jan 26, 2005, 11:06 PM
Registered User
Arlington, TX
Joined Dec 2002
605 Posts
Bristol M1

Pic of the airframe with all radio gear installed. I am still in need of landing gear, so it is the project du jour. I am including some pics of my blasa wheels that I am turning on my dremel tool. I am using 1/16th balsa back plate, with 3/16 balsa glued on X-grain. The one wheel I have completed weighs twice nothing. Although these wheels are more true to scale, I do wish that Mike would have let me vandalize his albatross D5 for those spoked wheels. But alas, I think he probably would make it on to that TV show "Cops" if I go near his wheels...
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Old Jan 27, 2005, 08:09 AM
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
Tim Wolff's Avatar
United States, MI, Temperance
Joined Sep 2002
6,586 Posts
What a beaut Rocketman! Is the mandrill you are using to make the wheels the one with the pointed "wood screw" tip that is supplied to use with the fiberous buffing pads?
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Old Jan 27, 2005, 08:26 AM
Registered User
Arlington, TX
Joined Dec 2002
605 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiberius
What a beaut Rocketman! Is the mandrill you are using to make the wheels the one with the pointed "wood screw" tip that is supplied to use with the fiberous buffing pads?

Yes, it is that one. I just turn the wheel slowly and fine adjust untill the wheel turns true, then an ultra small drop of thin CA to set it, then turn away.
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Old Jan 27, 2005, 09:41 AM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Those are very nice looking wheels you are making.

One question about the plane, though. Are the wings curved up (like polyhedral), or is that just an optical illusion?
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Old Jan 27, 2005, 09:50 AM
Stuck on a rock
epilot's Avatar
Germany, NDS, WOB
Joined Nov 2000
5,922 Posts
Great Baby Ace Mike. Brings back memories - I built one of those many years ago with a Telco CO2 motor in the nose. It has very good proportions for a succesful R/C model.

Michael
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Old Jan 27, 2005, 12:27 PM
Registered User
Arlington, TX
Joined Dec 2002
605 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Taylor
Those are very nice looking wheels you are making.

One question about the plane, though. Are the wings curved up (like polyhedral), or is that just an optical illusion?

Mostly, its the eliptical leading edge creating an illusion. There is a slight bow up in the wings, and I dont mind. It will make it fly better. My main concern now is the plane is nose heavy, and I will have to add tail weight. Maybe a gram or so. Not worth opening and moving the battery.
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Old Jan 28, 2005, 07:08 AM
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FFlover's Avatar
Vienna, Austria
Joined Jul 2004
136 Posts
magnets for wing attachment?

Beautiful planes guys!!,I still have considerable backlog on my Jungmeister.
I was thinking about attaching the wings with rare earth magnets,don't know what size to use though.
The chord is 7cm.Any ideas??
Dennis
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Old Jan 28, 2005, 08:03 AM
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
Tim Wolff's Avatar
United States, MI, Temperance
Joined Sep 2002
6,586 Posts
1/16x1/8 is a handy size for wing attachment AFAIK..

Nice looking planes coming together guys, but some of you are holding out. Share your progress!!! That's what its all about. Don't wait until it's finished....it's never done, but it is eventually due.

Appears that I made much ado about nothing when it came to doping the tissue on the Baby Ace. It airbrushed on great and took very little. The parts don't stay or get wet enough to worry about them sticking to anything. The biggest issue was hearing about how I stunk up the house spraying dope. Iíll get it back on the scale tonight and see how much weight it cost. Time to start adding some trim this weekend.
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Old Jan 28, 2005, 08:10 AM
LSFIII working on LVL IV
enrico74ec's Avatar
USA, FL, Daytona Beach
Joined Dec 2003
600 Posts
Hi all, finally I`m back into schedule, being away practicing for my first rookie heli championship localy, so I had exactly 2 months to learn to fly the heli, practice some basic hovering maneuvers and compete!! Back to my pacific ace tonight ... I got to have it ready by next friday, since my family and I are going to the beach and I really want to test it at sea level! regards Enrico
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Old Jan 28, 2005, 09:14 AM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Here's a source of the magnets. I like the #47 and #48 magnets here, the 'big' 1/8" x 1/16" for attaching wing, the smaller 1/16" x 1/32" for cowls, hatches, etc.: http://tinyurl.com/2tujp

Tim, when I airbrushed the dope and paint onto mine, it gained about 4 grams, but that was using a food scale with 2 gram accuracy

I finished mine up, except for decals, yesterday. AUW is ~ 44 grams (same scale) or ~ 1 2/3 oz. Wing loading is 4 1/2 oz/ft. That's kind of high for indoor, but the same as the 'Spicy Wings', HF 'Lightning' (aka 'MicroTaxi').

I could have used a single 135 LiPoly instead of the dual 170's, a lighter M-20 motor instead of the N-20 Kenway, RA MicroLite instead of tissue and dope, RFFS and DWE actuators instead of the MJ (with external ESC and switch and Falcon servos) and lopped off as much as 15 or 16 grams. This would a decent flier but marginally powered for the outdoor flyig I do most of the time.

Mods I suggest to anyone else who is considering this model would be:
Add a bottom spar. One wing panel wanted to bow up, and a bottom spar would have prevented this.
Thin or hollow out the 'box' that forms the nose and colwling area to save a little weight.
Use lighter gear and 6:1 gears to swing a larger prop, and move the gear farther forward for balance.

I'll take pictures of the finished model later today when the sun is up to show the gear layout.
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Old Jan 31, 2005, 04:40 PM
Registered User
Oskaloosa Municipal, Iowa, United States
Joined Jan 2002
89 Posts
R/C Micro Dime Scale Beechcraft Staggerwing D17S

OK, here's my entry. Some of your may recall back when I posted my first R/C micro scale red & cream Waco SRE model, I mentioned that I wanted to design and build my own Beechcraft Staggerwing D17S. I felt tha this aircraft would be the perfect companion model for my little Waco SRE ships. For this first model, I chose the pretty red & white N9465H full-size Staggerwing, as documented in photos supplied by Bob's Aircraft Documention service in So. California. Included with tis nice documentation package was a really nice 3-view drawing, originally published in the Czech hobby magazine, MODELAR, in 1992. This 3-view was specific to the D17S, the most popular of the Beech Staggerwing aircraft. I really wanted to do the D17S because I liked the cowl detail versus that of the later G17S models.

Using this 3-view drawing, I developed and drew my own plans. I first went to Kinko's and enlarged the scale 3-view to provide me with a drawing that was exactly 14" in wingspan. This gave me an exact scale of 1 : 27.428. I used this enlarged 3-view to provide me with all of the exact areas, moments, depths, widths, etc. for all of the parts for my model. Obviously had to change a few things but I tried hard to keep these to a minimum. Because my model was to be flown with just REM controls, I gave the wings a mild 7/16" dihedral angle and I also chose to "box" the fuselage, but maintain all of the scale side and top view curves. This turned out to be a very good decision because the Staggerwing planform has more curves and ellipses than Ms. Monroe ever had on her best day! Well, OK, "almost". When my plans were done, I made a few copies and started building.

It turned out that building the actual model was fairly easy, actually a whole lot easier than I thought it would be! None-the-less, I took my time and tried to do it right and light. The Staggerwing D17S has some interesting features that I tried to replicate. For instance, the left and right cowl louvers are actually quite prominent on the full-scale Staggerwings. So, I made simple basswood male molds and pulled these parts using .010" plastic sheet - they turned out very nice looking, IMO. Also prominent are the landing gear, wheels and doors. I've tried to duplicate the overall "beefy" look of these assemblies, using the lightest methods I could come up with. I duplicated the polished L/G shock springs using .024 Evergreen rod stock and Krylon "Chrome" paint. The L/G doors are 1/32" balsa sheet with .005" litho plate strut attach brackets, each drilled with the two scale lightening holes shown on the documentation. The wheels themselves are 5 cross-grain laminations of 1/16" balsa, turned to shape and provided with treads, using a mandrel and my Dremel Tool. These are scale in diameter and width. The tail wheel is black meat tray foam, again turned to shape and "treaded" with the Dremel Tool.

I made a scale male mold for the spinner and pulled this part from .010" plastic sheet. To make it as scale as possible, I shot it with a coat of Krylon "Chrome" paint, followed by a coat of Gloss Clear to make it "pop" a little. The propeller started life as a black GWS 5 X 4.3 unit. I trimmed about 35% - 40% of the area from the stock prop, making it a lot "thinner" in front view and, of course, a lot more scale-like in the process. The finished prop was then carefully balanced and then airbrushed to give it the correct color and tip trim pattern.

The motor/geardrive unit is a standard M-20LV motor, driving a 1 : 5 Didel gear set, with the drive shaft housed in a pair of 1mm ball-bearings. The radio system is my trusty RFFS100 receiver, two Selman MiniAct actuators and a single 170maH LiPo cell. I installed a tiny Cloud Nine On/Off switch, using a short length of .020" MW for remote on/off capability through the left fuse side. When preparing my LiPo cell, I soldered two additional wires (1 red, 1 black) in place. These two extra wires were cut to length, tinned and routed out of the fuselage bottom, providing external "charging jacks". The antenna is an Azarr M72-Lite unit, fully internal.

The finish is my typical methods, as described in my earlier Waco SRE thread. The trademark Beechcraft "winged bird" stripes on the fuselage sides and the shorter cowl stripes were created using a Stika machine, trim sheet and scanned art from my 3-views. I then appliedthese stripes to my fuselage and cowl as "masks". To do this, the fuselage was first airbrushed white where these stripes would appear. With the Stika-produced trim sheet masks carefully positioned in place, I then airbrushed the fuselage red. When the paint was dry, I removed the Stika masks and "Voila'", my painted white stripes were neatly and crisply revealed. I was especially happy with this detail. The final pertinent specifications are :
Wing Span: 14"
Wing Area: 51.662 sq. in. (.3587 sq. ft.) - CAD computed
RTF Weight: 35.2 grams
Wing Loading: 3.45 oz./sq. ft.

I felt that if a model does not fly and fly well, it is nothing more than a display model - and I do not build display models! So, it was with some trepidation that I headed for our indoor venue for the inevitable first test flight. This was on Tuesday, the 25th of January. Our flying site is a walled basketball court, providing flying room only within the out of bounds stripes. I placed the little Staggerwing on the hardwood floor and smoothly advanced the throttle. The airplane responded nicely, tracking straight with just a little rudder input to counteract torque. Lift off took place in about 12' and it was flying smoothly in a slight climb. I made the first 180 deg. turn at the far end of the court and the airplane responded as if on rails! At this point, it was obvious that full throttle was WAY too much power, so I brought the throttle back down to about 1/2. At this setting, the Staggerwing assumed a very scale-like "cruise" speed. I found that the rudder needed no trim at all but tha the elevators needed 1 "click" of up trim to fly the airplane hands off - not bad at all!

I flew a series of left and right circuits, some tight figure eights and grew quickly comfortable with the way this model handled. I got brave and went for a touch and go maneuver and the airplane handled this with absolute ease. After about 5 minutes in the air I set up my first ever landing. Using throttle, I let the model descend, holding the nose up just a little with elevators. The airplane touched down at mid court at what was very close to a 3-point attitude and rolled out to a stop, straight and true. I found that I could easily "taxi" it back to me with a little coordinated rudder and throttle input and managed to taxi the airplane all the way back to me from across the court. All things considered, I was absolutely delighted with this first test flight and now look forward to flying it in front of my fellow indoor R/C friends in the near future!

I've attached some photos of my new micro R/C Staggerwing for your possible interest. I hope you enjoy these as much as I've enjoyed the design and building of this very nice little Beechcraft Staggerwing D17S model. I've said it before, but I'll say it again - I LOVE this hobby! By the way, I can hardly wait to see the models that you guys are coming up with.
Scott Christensen
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Old Jan 31, 2005, 04:44 PM
Registered User
Oskaloosa Municipal, Iowa, United States
Joined Jan 2002
89 Posts
Additional Photos & Info

In keeping with the "rules", here is a photo of my plans in the development stages around the 14th of December.
Scott Christensen
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