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Old Jan 11, 2005, 11:25 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Tiberius,

I tried that method to save some weight, but I couldn't get the plastic to stick to the wood very well, so I went to roughing up 1/16" aluminum tubes instead. They stuck pretty good. What did you glue yours down with?
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Old Jan 12, 2005, 08:59 AM
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
Tim Wolff's Avatar
United States, MI, Temperance
Joined Sep 2002
6,611 Posts
Superphaltic. Seems as stout as should be needed. I'll try canopy glue if the superphaltic gives up.
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Old Jan 14, 2005, 12:39 AM
Registered User
Arlington, TX
Joined Dec 2002
607 Posts
Bristol M1

I have the tail surfaces mounted and hinged. The Rudder is hooked up and functional. I am using .5mm carbon rods and control horns made of clear plastic cut from blister pack materiel. It is aproximately .3mm thick. Rudder gives strong full travel. I still have to connect the elevator to the actuator.
The RFFS 100 and the 145 ma lipoly cell are installed and functional.

The spool of Kevlar thread is what I plan to use for the wing rigging.

The yellow wire below the receiver running back is the antenna. It is an Azar micro antenna about 3 inches long. It has worked great with this receiver on other models.

Walter
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Old Jan 14, 2005, 01:09 AM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
You might want to re-route the antenna away from the CF rod; they can cause some noise... It is looking good. Hows the weight?
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Old Jan 14, 2005, 08:10 PM
Registered User
Arlington, TX
Joined Dec 2002
607 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Taylor
You might want to re-route the antenna away from the CF rod; they can cause some noise... It is looking good. Hows the weight?

I think I would rather have the antenna 3/4 inch from carbon than that close to a brushed M20 motor. I can't think of any other options.

20 gm with wings... some detail and landing gear yet to go...
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Old Jan 14, 2005, 11:09 PM
Gravity is a harsh mistress.
Tim Wolff's Avatar
United States, MI, Temperance
Joined Sep 2002
6,611 Posts
Looks great Rocketman! Thanks for the pics. It helps as I've never attempted to put micro gear in this style of plane before.

I've seen many RFFS flyers mounting the antenna vertically, sticking straight up out of the plane. I suppose it is to help increase the range or decrease the sensitivity to interference. But, it looks silly and has to create a fair amount of drag.

I admit that I've been procrastinating as it is time to start covering the Baby Ace. I haven't done any real tissue covering in nearly 30 years. I also have had 2 indoor sessions per week since the first of the year
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Old Jan 15, 2005, 03:13 AM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Tiberius,

The Baby Ace is an easy covering job - the wings are straight (except for the tips which I did as seperate pieces but could be cover in one piece if done wet), the tail is all flat, and the fuse can be done in two pieces. There are lot worse models to start your tissuing on again!
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Old Jan 18, 2005, 11:51 PM
Registered User
Arlington, TX
Joined Dec 2002
607 Posts
Bristol

A little more progress. Anyone else having fun? Post your pics too.

Weight is now 21 gm with wings. I am dreading making the wheels, but it seems to be next. Maybe I should steal the spoked wheels off of Mike Taylor's Albatross...

Wuhahahaha
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 01:45 AM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Hey! Leave them wheels alone!

I have got the Baby Ace covered, doped and painted, and the airframe completed. Wheels (from the kit) are on as well as the wheel pants. I decided to make the wheels and whell pants seperate from the legs to prevent mashing the fuselage on landings. I moved the wire back 1/8" from the plan's position (behind the former instead of in front of it) and then glued the LG legs over the wire (but not to the wire). The legs are only glued to the fuselage framework, and glued with flexible glue. The pants are attached to the downward piece of wire with a tapered balsa slice between the plastic pants and the wire. They seem to be strong enough and they move freely.

I used Mike Stuart's method of finishing the tissue. I airbrushed on several (very) thinned coats of Sig Nitrate. This worked fine and resulted in no warps. Then I sprayed trim using thinned Floquil 'clear red' paint from the trains section. This was rather disappointing since the tissue sagged under the Floquil. It has tightened up some, but the nice tight covering is rather whacked. The clear red looks good, though, and is transparent so the whole model is uniformly see-through.

My 4-year old granddaughter keeps dinling me for not haveing 'guys' in the airplane, so I took her picture waving to me, copied that and flipped it, and printed out pictures of her. I cut those out and glued them back to back and then glued that to two 1/16" square sticks that got glued under the frame. SHe is very pleased to be flying the airplane...

The bare airframe bones weighed ~10 grams. After doping and painting they weighed ~14 grams. Assembled with all the struts, cabane structure, 'pilot', wheels, pants and LG legs, the weight is now ~ 20 grams. I just weighed the Cirrus MJ RX, 2 Falcons, ESC, N-20 geared motor and prop, and 2 x 170 mah LiPolys; that is a scary 24 grams. I am now looking at a hefty 46 gram plane, 4.5 oz/ft, and 10 mph minimum airspeed.

Options at this point are to either bite the bullet and stuff it all in there (it would have nearly 1:1 power to weight), or go the the JMP w/built-in ESC (saves 3 grams) with single cell (save 4 grams) and an M-20 (saves 4 grams) for an AUW of 35 grams but with only 18 grams of thrust, 3.5 oz/ft, and minimum airspeed of 9 mph... Oh, well, I wanted 'sporty' performance...

I'll take some photos and post them tomorrow.
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 11:01 PM
Registered User
Arlington, TX
Joined Dec 2002
607 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Taylor
Hey! Leave them wheels alone!

I have got the Baby Ace covered, doped and painted, and the airframe completed. Wheels (from the kit) are on as well as the wheel pants. I decided to make the wheels and whell pants seperate from the legs to prevent mashing the fuselage on landings. I moved the wire back 1/8" from the plan's position (behind the former instead of in front of it) and then glued the LG legs over the wire (but not to the wire). The legs are only glued to the fuselage framework, and glued with flexible glue. The pants are attached to the downward piece of wire with a tapered balsa slice between the plastic pants and the wire. They seem to be strong enough and they move freely.

I used Mike Stuart's method of finishing the tissue. I airbrushed on several (very) thinned coats of Sig Nitrate. This worked fine and resulted in no warps. Then I sprayed trim using thinned Floquil 'clear red' paint from the trains section. This was rather disappointing since the tissue sagged under the Floquil. It has tightened up some, but the nice tight covering is rather whacked. The clear red looks good, though, and is transparent so the whole model is uniformly see-through.

My 4-year old granddaughter keeps dinling me for not haveing 'guys' in the airplane, so I took her picture waving to me, copied that and flipped it, and printed out pictures of her. I cut those out and glued them back to back and then glued that to two 1/16" square sticks that got glued under the frame. SHe is very pleased to be flying the airplane...

The bare airframe bones weighed ~10 grams. After doping and painting they weighed ~14 grams. Assembled with all the struts, cabane structure, 'pilot', wheels, pants and LG legs, the weight is now ~ 20 grams. I just weighed the Cirrus MJ RX, 2 Falcons, ESC, N-20 geared motor and prop, and 2 x 170 mah LiPolys; that is a scary 24 grams. I am now looking at a hefty 46 gram plane, 4.5 oz/ft, and 10 mph minimum airspeed.

Options at this point are to either bite the bullet and stuff it all in there (it would have nearly 1:1 power to weight), or go the the JMP w/built-in ESC (saves 3 grams) with single cell (save 4 grams) and an M-20 (saves 4 grams) for an AUW of 35 grams but with only 18 grams of thrust, 3.5 oz/ft, and minimum airspeed of 9 mph... Oh, well, I wanted 'sporty' performance...

I'll take some photos and post them tomorrow.

I realy like those wheels! Just think how great they would look on my Bristol.
Not very scale though on my bird.

How are you calculating min speed? Isn't that highly dependent on airfoil choice? Just curious.

You know how crazy I get when people start talking weight. I always go for the lighter wing loading. If you can get the weight down by going to one cell and an M20, that would seem to be worth it.

I was ordering from Bob Selmen the other night, and he advised me that 1/2 gm / sq in (max) is a good target for this type of model. My experience would seem to back up this estimate. I realy have to like people that mix metric and english units.

Just as a comparison;

My bristol is 90% complete. All batteries and gear are installed. I have yet to add the landing gear, and the prop. I am at 21 gm. I expect to complete under 25 gm. I estimate my area at 40 sq in, so .625 gm/sq in.
Ok, how about 3.2 oz/sq ft.

Walter
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Old Jan 20, 2005, 12:07 AM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Walter,

If you really like the wheels, they come from Sam's in the UK (http://www.samsmodels.demon.co.uk/special.html note: not the easiest site to find stuff on!) and are ~$20 a pair.

I use this handy flight calculator at Larry Park's RoomFlight web site (http://www.smarttoolsinc.com/) - look under 'Tech Resources'.

As far as the minimum speed is concerned, it is more a function of wingloading than airfoil. A Cessna 150 stalls at 54 mph clean and 47 flaps down - not too big a difference although the airfoil is greatly changed. The calculator allows you to change the coeffiecent of lift. The .8 default value is about what the clark 'Y' is. You can play with the lift value to see what changes it makes.

The 1/2 gr/sq inch figure is nice, but with a 20 gram airframe, that would mean I only have 7 grams for power, motor and radio gear, and the is NOT going to happen! I suppose if I were only an indoor flier I would try for that weight loading, but I fly outside almost all the time. Most of the planes I fly fall into the 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 ounce/foot loading and the heavier, more powerfull planes are really more fun. I found I can loop heavier models more easily than I could a lighter model simply because they had more momentum to carry them over the top. Wind and turbulence doesn't upset them as much as it does a lighter loaded plane either. Of course that also means they have enough momentum to stir up the plane when you put it in!

I have a 'Sticky Pete' built-up model that has had a geared pager motor, M-20 and N-20 with both 1 and 2 cell batteries. It has 60 sq inches of 12% thick symetrical wing and weights from ~30 to ~40-some grams AUW. It did fly a lot slower on the pager motor, but was no fun. The M-20 single cell flew it a lot better, the M-20 2-cell set up flew even better yet, but the N-20 2-cell set-up made it FUN. The same could be said of its predecessor (depron, under cambered wing, profile fuselage, A/E/T). A good, slow, docile flier at the lighter weights, but more aerobatic at the higher power and weight.

BTW, I have been accused of building rockets, not indoor planes in the past...
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Old Jan 20, 2005, 05:45 PM
Registered User
Delaware
Joined Aug 2004
69 Posts
Guys,

I just finished my plane. It is a easy built models kit of the Percival Mew Gull. A 1/24 scale plane, it has a wingspan of 12" long. I enjoyed the build, and was surprised at how fast the little racer went together.

I'm wondering what type of power setup, motor, battery and reciever to use. I have a RFFS, but I think that it maybe to heavy.

Mike, I went to Larry's website. Thanks for the link. I found out that the plane has a wing area of around 24". I think that the chord is around 2 inches, and so the calculator suggest around 10 grams of thrust.

What do you guys think? Is the RFFS light enough? What battery and motor should I use, coreless, 120 mah? What type of actuators?

Thanks

Ethan
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Old Jan 20, 2005, 06:40 PM
Team 30 Micro EDF
Mike Taylor's Avatar
Camarillo, California
Joined Apr 2002
4,516 Posts
Ethan,

That sounds cool. I love the Mew Gull. I've got an Aerographics kit for a 26" version to build one of these days...

That is pretty small, about the same size as the Spicy Wings kids FF models I have converted, and probably lighter than the foamie model. What is the weight of yours? I'd sure like to see some pictures!

You can't get much lighter than the RFFS. Models that size should do fine with one of the geared pager motors and a sub-100 mah LiPoly. Bill Stiltner has more experience in this realm than I do, so maybe he will jump in with some solid advice.

The DWE actuators (the small ones) should give plenty of authority to such a small model.
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Old Jan 20, 2005, 07:09 PM
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United States, VA, Clintwood
Joined Nov 2002
3,666 Posts
Ethan
I think your plane will fly with the RFFS. I would use a low geared 4.5 ohm motor. If you can get a hold of some bit gears 3.83:1 would be great with a U80 prop or similar.
Check out Gordon's 6mm 4.5 ohm motor tests. I would definately use the 60maH lipoly for a plane that small. You might even be able to get by with direct drive and a smaller prop but will probably be better off using a geared setup. If you want lots of extra thrust go with a higher gear ratio and larger prop just pick any from Gordon's table and you ought to be fine with that size plane. For actuators you can make your own or get some of the new small ones from BSDMicroRC. If you make your own check out epilot's actuators. They are the lightest with the most torque and good design plus simple to build. Check out Graham's 8g powerhouse thread for info on direct drive prop. Your plane might be a bit heavy for direct drive not sure. I would say it will be a slightly fast plane so be prepared to fly it. Probably a good idea is to make a foam test plane the same size and weight till you get the powerplant figured out.

Billy
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Old Jan 20, 2005, 07:19 PM
Registered User
Delaware
Joined Aug 2004
69 Posts
Mike,

Thanks for the input. I haven't really played around with gearing of the pager motors. I'm sure it will be exciting.

Billy,

Great to have your input. I guess that I will end up going with the RFFS, BSD actuators probably a 60mah battery, what do you think of a 20mah? I'll check out the weight. Need to get a new scale.

As far as the pictures go, I haven't figured out how to compress the image size for the web. Sometimes I get the pixelated versions that I post. Any input would be helpful.

Thanks Guys,

Ethan
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