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Old Aug 11, 2009, 05:40 PM
Voices through wires? Ha!
Chas's Avatar
Joined Feb 2003
1,659 Posts
I understand it Apple, but say it is a shame.

When you cross the border on your way to Geneseo, and the Customs Officer asks you whether you will be leaving anything in the US, I suppose you unblushingly answer "No".

You have conceded that people have stopped building these lovely old designs because they are virtually unusable F/F. Are they to be consigned to the People's Plans Archive, therefore, to rot in perpetuity? The original designers would have given their eye teeth for a 99% reliable D/T or control system at zero weight penalty; now we have it, but people stop flying the models because they won't use it!

Yes, it's hard to understand.

C

PS I remember straddling my NSU Quickly, with a "Pal Joey" dangling from the handlebars, to neeeeeeeeeeee down to Topcliffe for a chance at a tarmac takeoff - much better than Croft (strewn with quarter scale boulders even then). Later Duncan Pasks's big furniture van made my jaw drop with a bevy of Pylon Racers racked within, at the early Topcliffe meetings - and Apple I even flew my Mercury Marauder there, F/F, and managed to bring it home; so please don't think I'm anti-F/F.

C
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 06:26 PM
flight999
England
Joined Dec 2002
2,344 Posts
Interestingly someone did fit a f/f type D.T.
to large 'Open' and 'Standard Class' r/c gliders
once to help bring them down from boomers.

The type that even flying inverted wouldn't
get you down from without tearing the wings
off.

A couple of thousand feet without wings
doesn't do the airframe or gear much good.
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 06:42 PM
Voices through wires? Ha!
Chas's Avatar
Joined Feb 2003
1,659 Posts
Flight I just can't credit the logic of that. Why fit a "F/F" D/T when a 7-channel full range Receiver weighs 10 grams? Your receiver could operate any D/T system within the wit of man (airbrakes, barndoors, spoilers, parachutes...).
And what D/T system did the "F/F" actuator use? Apple has already confirmed that tip-up tails are useless on large gliders. It beggars belief.

C
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 07:39 PM
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carbondale il
Joined Jan 2007
2,568 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehoney
But many people have no interest whatsoever in flying a model with radio, hard as that may be for a majority to understand
I'm one of them. My Dad gave me an RC plane, I'm sorry, but I don't want it.

Kev
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 07:47 PM
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Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
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>When you cross the border on your way to Geneseo, and the Customs Officer asks you whether you will be leaving anything in the US, I suppose you unblushingly answer "No".

That's true, Chas for I will be leaving something in the US - an appreciable amount of money. No one seems to be bothered about that . Models? Not any more, in the years I've owned a tracking system, and rarely before that even if it took return trips to search and retrieve..

>people have stopped building these lovely old designs because they are virtually unusable F/F. Are they to be consigned to the People's Plans Archive, therefore, to rot in perpetuity? The original designers would have given their eye teeth for a 99% reliable D/T or control system at zero weight penalty; now we have it, but people stop flying the models because they won't use it!

I merely said that some people prefer not to fly R/C models and if they are accordingly not building these old designs then so be it .. that is their choice; but, they are being built and flown by R/C enthusiasts and more power to them. There may not be many of them so built but they are not forgotten and rotting in an archive as you suggest.

The fact that I choose not to steer a model of any sort around the sky - I find it boring to an extreme even to watch - does not mean that I criticise or demean those who do. So. by your own same token please don't think I'm anti-RC. Each to their own.

Cheers JM
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 07:58 PM
Voices through wires? Ha!
Chas's Avatar
Joined Feb 2003
1,659 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehoney

The fact that I choose not to steer a model of any sort around the sky - I find it boring to an extreme even to watch

Please Jim, I am not suggesting for a moment that you have to steer it around - I am just saying that someone has invented a better form of control/retrieval. By all means just leave the Tx in your car, or on the picnic bench - but it's a "Red Button" that you can use to activate any form of D/T, or full aerodynamic control, at your option.

Putting the Tx in the model? And then chasing over 7 counties to find it?

BTW what happens when your F/F model lands on the motorway causing a ten-car pileup, or on private land, or in Lake Ontario, or drifts into NF/Buffalo Airport approach and gets sucked into the intake of a Galaxy - what price your retrieval system then?
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehoney
>Or better still, MORE angle?????????

Since large gliders were revived for a while in Vintage - Sunspot, Thunderking, Thermalist, etc. - it was found that safely dethermalising the things with a tipped tail was nigh impossible.... they'd cavort or spiral down and inevitably suffer damage, primarily at the tip dihedral joint. No amount of angle adjustment appeared to obviate this, or things like mylar deployed from tipped stab to fuselage to increase 'fin' area.

Why? Dunno .. but it seems to be symptomatic for anything over about 8' in span and the large gliders have gone out of popularity once again in Vintage, for that reason. My last big'un (1963/4) was a mere 8' and it was very hit-and-miss as to whether it got down in one piece and I just got fed up making repairs.

A shame for there's nothing more majestic than one of these cruising overhead
Here is a photo of the Mantis with the tail up, I have been to nearly 90deg, and as low as 40ish. Next is about 25deg, and I've also heard that a little more forward DT works
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 10:59 PM
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Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
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Well, now you're talking radio D/T which is a different kettle of fish altogether and which is steadily becoming more widespread. It has no bearing on radio control in any other way and wouldn't bring a big glider down any differently.

Chasing over 7 counties? That's why it's called 'free' flight .. all part of the fun. The thrill of the chase and all that sort of thing ...

As for your final para .. all possibilities I guess..... but as all the insurance claims within MAAC and most elsewhere come from the operation of radio models ... 'nuff said.
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 11:04 PM
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Here are some more glider photo's I've collected. Thhese are all OP's !
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 07:29 AM
flight999
England
Joined Dec 2002
2,344 Posts
Chas. Regarding your post #1052.
I don't think you have been around as long as you would like to have us believe. I don't know where you are or where you come from, but I would suggest you check before you make statements.

The era I am talking about was the early 70's. The person who introduced the r/c released D/T (similar to the r/c released tow hook) was one Roy Garner -, a designer and producer of radio gliders such as the 'Sunshine' - to our soaring club. The gadget had been commercially produced and never really caught on, though it did save quite a few flyaways. R/c gliders are/were usually more solidly built than their f/f counterparts although that is where they originated from, as did the d/t. The main faults with the gadgets were that you couldn't reverse the proceedure once released and it was difficult to set the angle. The same effect could be had by 'cornering the stick' except that the model tends to spin, - hopefully flat! - and it can be reversed when enough height is lost. One trialist was the late Jim Baguley during his 'rest' from f/f and possibly his flying partner Al Wisher, another ex-free flighter.

Jim as for radio and free flight. I feel it is the thin edge of the wedge. (A great idea despite adding one more complication, like gears in P30). The power boys are talking of 'red button' shutoffs and how long before it is used for camber changing and other such devices?
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 09:21 AM
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kobkobico's Avatar
USA, CA, Temecula
Joined Jul 2005
646 Posts
Really, this is a little ridiculous. This isn't a debate (and how could you debate against someone's personal preferences?), it's a thread for pictures and discussion of free flight models.

If you don't understand it, keep to RC. When my model I made a couple months ago flew away, and I chased it around, I was happy it was flying so well and the chase was fun to me. Likewise, when I go to the park and fly an RC plane, the control is fun for me. There will be people on both sides of the line, but IMO we should just accept that not everybody likes the same thing! I'm sorry, but every time this happens I can't help but think of video game fanboys bashing each other for what system they use.
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 09:52 AM
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Vienna, Austria
Joined Jul 2004
136 Posts
Have to agree with kobkobico.
Speaking of potential danger, I can remember a few fatalities involving RC in the last years, but none in freeflight. Of course each discipline has to be done responsibly to stay within a certain safety margin.
What would FF be without a good chase? Speaking for myself, half the fun.
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 10:06 AM
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Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Joined Oct 2004
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Flight - I agree about the thin edge of the wedge; however geared P30's are now disallowed, I believe - common sense prevailed here

Kobkobico, FFlover ... I agree - this is a thread for photos and discussion of F/F. Following my comment that large gliders are reluctant to DT safely R/C has been pushed as a means to fly them and so things have progressed into differing sidelines. As I've said previously, each to their own preference and choice; I do not care to fly R/C but I have no argument with those who do, and will not be drawn into such debate or dissension.
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 04:23 PM
Voices through wires? Ha!
Chas's Avatar
Joined Feb 2003
1,659 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by flight999
Interestingly someone did fit a f/f type D.T.
to large 'Open' and 'Standard Class' r/c gliders
once to help bring them down from boomers.

I am quite happy to check my facts, but perhaps you should check your English, Flight - you said "f/f type D.T." - which is specifically not a radio-operated D/T. In fact, I advocated radio D/T's in my direct answer to you at Post 1053, and again in 1056. BTW Flight where are you and where do you come from?

I have never bashed F/F, despite the ruffled feathers around here, but merely said it was a pity that refusing to fly Thermalists, Thunderkings or Sunspots on radio (D/T, or full control, whatever you want) - meant that you wouldn't fly them at all.

To counter the complaints about the lack of pictures, here's my Leprechaun achieving an OOS in gorgeous streeting cumuli.



C
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 04:58 PM
Registered User
Gold Coast Australia.
Joined Jan 2005
2,518 Posts
Poor Col. They've just ignored your pics buddy. LOL.
Is that Leigh launching a Jader? Vin's model?
Nicky Woop in the next one. Saw he went back and flew for the old country in WC.
Aiglet on the wing.
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