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Old Oct 30, 2004, 06:18 AM
Out of Time
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What I find hilarious, over and over again, is that it's the Left that keeps coming up with all sorts of whicky-whacky conspiracy theories that have so many holes in them you could drive a Hummer through 'em.
At the same time, the number of Leftists who actually buy into those theories seem to increase every day like cockroaches. Oops, sorry, I feel really bad that I may have insulted a cockroach somewhere.

If they, the Left, are now down to making up a new conspiracy group, the "Rapturists", I think they may actually be running out of ideas.

"Next Stop... the Twighlight Zone"

Highflight
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 07:00 AM
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Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
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I'm rather comforted by your remarks, Highflight, as cockroaches are one of the best bets to survive the nuclear WWIII, which you take such pleasure in predicting.
Just imagine the joys of living in Europe, where Kerry would be viewed as a right of centre candidate.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaninMilwaukee
"3. Rapturists. An extreme cult of Christianity. They have managed to gain great influence over the government of the United States."

Please expand. Is this a "secret" cabal like the masons?
No, not at all. They are open and about and all around, and constitute a large voting bloc.
It's not some secret conspiracy, it's a religious movement, as around about how many of these diehard Bush People are Rapturists.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 12:34 PM
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"It's not some secret conspiracy, it's a religious movement, as around about how many of these diehard Bush People are Rapturists."

Interesting that despite being open, that few have heard of them. What exactly is their goverment agenda that they're pushing?
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 01:19 PM
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Its not quite that way.

Basically you have the Neo cons - who have an agenda, that is about restoring a sort of neo fascist state - one where people willingly sucumb to being trodden on as part of some Great American Dream. It's a sort of patriotic flag waving militaristic dream that Goebbels would have been proud of. The essnce of it is that liberalism is equivalent to moral decay, and the need is to put disipline and national pride back on the agenda in a crude sort of way.

Its pretty much like any other fascistic moement in that respect, and like previous historical fascists, it needs a Cause to catapult it into power.

Ther are two Causes currently available that are suitable: One is Islamic fundamentalism - a really rather minor irritation that is being dealt with quietly and slowly world wide - and the other is the great Bible belt moral conviction. Don't forget the USA was founded by religious fundamentalists, and attracted many more, especially as the particular brand that is most fervent - strong protestantism, - is ideally adapted to the disciplnes of running agricultrure. Its no coincidence that the 'bible belt' is primarily agricultural, and that's where Bush's support is strongest.

The Neo cons have in a sense teamed up with the fundamentalist Christians, to basically wage war on what they see as moral corruption, and relativism. The idea that there is no absolute right or wrong, but merely that some things are better than others.

From my limited understanding the religious side totally believes that there is absolute right and wrong, and the neo cons believe that its better for the little people to have those simple arguments put to them, and believe it, though the neo cons don't actually believe it themselves.

So the conflict is about moral conviction versus common sense, pargmatism, and intelligence. I think if you examine the way the current campaign is being run you can see the threads running through.

I believe the neo cons have harnessed the fundamentalists and are using them with a hidden agenda personally. The neo con agenda is to have a people so involved in some Great Idea, that they fail to notice where they are going, becaue they feel that its better to be Gloroius and United in A Common Purpose, even if it wrecks the country and costs lives, than disunited and simply comfortable and suburban. Besides they like power, and strutting around. Just like any fascist.

You may feel that socialism has hijacked the democrats, and it sucks. I sympathise. But you may also consider that the neo cons have hijacked the republicans, and the religious right, and that sucks too.

Fo those that are prepared to tolerate what I believe is regarded as a dangerous Lieberal organiszation, check out this link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3951615.stm which is about a series of prgrams exloring the rise of both the Islamic fundamentalist and the neo conservative movements.

And make up your own minds. Sadly the link does not contain the program material, just a trailer.

Suffice to say neither organsation comes out with any credit.

I have to say that I feel sympathy for all sides. It is nice to win, to feel morally superior, and to believe in simple clear cut things, but its also terribly dangerous to feel you are right irrespective of the evidence, and I lack the faith to either trust my own judgement or the judgement of others enough to go along with it to teh extent of e.g. starting a war..'Ignorance is bliss', is probably the watchword of the neocon movement. Sadly I am not that innocent any more, and it's not that blissful either, once ones ignorance lessens to the point where one is onl to aware of it...
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 01:30 PM
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Geez, Vintage. You are right on. Spot on. You got it exactly. I'm very impressed. Nobody wants to talk about this, but it's very much real.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 02:15 PM
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Its being talked about in the UK, extensively, on TV.

You might want to take a look at this...I think this is the best a quick google serach uncovered. http://www.eurolegal.org/useur/usneocon.htm

I have been mightily puzzled as to why we came to be where we are. It simply made no sense till someone pointed me at the neo cons,and said. "That's why"

reading it through, one can understand the mind set of those involved. I think its necessary to pick at the logic and see if it is either a defensible polititical philosophy, or if not, why not.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 02:24 PM
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Looks very much like something sponsored by Usama Been Laughing at US.

I don't think is says too much that I would place stock in. Wasn't in Billy Boy Clinton that first talked about the New World Order?

LcJ
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 02:31 PM
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"Just imagine the joys of living in Europe, where Kerry would be viewed as a right of centre candidate."

Soon he will be thought of as such here too.

The Republicans have not been hijacked by neo-cons or fundamentalist but rather by socialists. Just look at the policies they pass (prescription drugs, farm welfare, steel tariffs, federal education expansion, stem cell research, “freedom cars” fuel cell spending, non-defense discretionary federal spending increasing 36% in 4 years) and the candidates who are regarded as the power players (McCain, Giuliani, Pataki, Arnold S.).

What was a progressive democrat platform is now a Republican. What was a Communist platform is now Democrat. You leftists should be in glee as there is no small government party in play anymore. You’ve won.

Oh, well maybe that is why you’ve all seemingly turned your attention to the destruction of religion?
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 04:10 PM
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LTChip; I'm perfectly happy for people to practice any religion they want while it does not suppose a limitation of the rights of people like me, who do not feel conviced of any faith. We may, hopelessly, try to argue against a particular faith on logical grounds but you won't find people arguing for the burning of churches or the banning of religion. Perhaps one of the things that typifies a liberal point of view is respect for the next person's opinions, including religion.
With regard to the communist platform now being propounded by the democrats, I think they've still a long way to go
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 06:26 PM
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OK - well maybe that bit about religion was over kill. But as far as "a long way to go" ...everything is relative. Since we are quickly passing the point where the government forcibly takes over 50% of the average man's income I think this qualifies as communistic. Yeah we still have private property, sort of, but try to keep that property if you decide that the government is not going to take half of what you produce and you will soon meet the government face to face by way of jack booted thugs with guns coming to take your stuff and put you in jail or kill you if you choose to resist this tyranny.

Not exactly what the Founders had in mind methinks.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 06:28 PM
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Mr LTchip. We all want a better place to be in, a better world for those who follow, less crime, more wealth, a better quality of life. But that doesn't mean we want someone elses idea of what that means rammed down our throats, and in return we don't want to ram it down yours.

Its a complex and fast changing world these days. Maybe having faith that you know what is right is a good thing, maybe its a dangerous thing. I truly don't know. I just want the freedom to reach for understanding in my own way, and to make little mistakes without a government or a lobby group telling me what I can't do.

There's a lot wrong with modern society and the political process, but so far the alternatives seem worse. I do not believe we can turn th clock back to simpler times. Things like stem cell research exist. We've eaten of the tree and we have to learn to live with the consequences.

I personally don't want to have to put my trust in God, George Bush, or John Kerry. If there is one thing that has helped me through my life, it's been my ability to think, struggle with issues, and understand things as best I can. Your mileage may vary, and I accept that.

I just wish you could accept my position too.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 08:45 PM
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V1, both posts very nicely put.
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 09:13 PM
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V1 - I generally agree with your last post.

I don't agree that the USA was founded by Religious fundamentalists nor to I agree that there is some grand conspiracy of these neo-cons or fundamentalists to take over the world and/or destroy it in favor of inciting the rapture. Of course, it is possible, just as it is possible that there is a grand conspiracy of socialists or communists (Soros, Moore et al) to do away with individual liberties, property rights, and make everyone employees of the world government (run by these same liberal “elites” of course since they know better how to run people’s lives than the people do).

Anyway, the point is that both "sides" (if we can even say that there are on opposite sides), are in favor of bigger government, more taxation, more regulation, and necessarily fewer individual liberties.

I have thrown out the 10% figure as a threshold beyond which taxation turns into tyranny. Irsdog and others have argue with be about that figure and it is admittedly arbitrary. But works for me as a "gut check" by the people on their government. Needless to say we are way past that point.

I am afraid that this whole terrorist war has been a great diversion for the people and has allowed and will continue to allow further tyranny (no matter who holds the executive office) to be imposed by our government in the form of more taxation and government regulation at the individual and corporate level.

The important thing that the founders did was to limit government with a Constitution. These limitations have now been largely ignored or interpreted away leaving us with a creeping tyranny. It really would matter not who was President (or congressmen or judges for that matter) if we had a truly limited government in the spirit of our Constitution. Heck, I’d take a King if they were bound by a strict set of limitations.

BTW - I recently found a quote by one of our founders who shared my view on the 10% thing – thought that was interesting and so I’ll share it…..

"It would be a hard government that should tax its people one tenth part of their income" - Ben Franklin
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Old Oct 30, 2004, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTChip
"Just imagine the joys of living in Europe, where Kerry would be viewed as a right of centre candidate."

Soon he will be thought of as such here too.

The Republicans have not been hijacked by neo-cons or fundamentalist but rather by socialists. Just look at the policies they pass (prescription drugs, farm welfare, steel tariffs, federal education expansion, stem cell research, “freedom cars” fuel cell spending, non-defense discretionary federal spending increasing 36% in 4 years) and the candidates who are regarded as the power players (McCain, Giuliani, Pataki, Arnold S.).

What was a progressive democrat platform is now a Republican. What was a Communist platform is now Democrat. You leftists should be in glee as there is no small government party in play anymore. You’ve won.

Oh, well maybe that is why you’ve all seemingly turned your attention to the destruction of religion?

You are really, really off the mark on the above, and really out of touch with what is really going on.
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