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Old Oct 29, 2004, 04:42 PM
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Quote>> The world population of Muslim Extremists are at war, not only with America, but are at war with any part of the world that will not bend to their will.<<

Exactly how many people comprises this world population of extremists: perhaps 1,500 tops judging by the total number of atrocities world wide? (I'm not including the 2 Billion pissed off and disaffected, just the suicidal maniacs).

OH boy. So basically for the sake of this handful of prats we get to watch and pray that Bush has not duped a nation into voting for WWIII in the name of patriotism, religion and the flag. He may be convinced by this utter folly, but you don't have to be.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 05:00 PM
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19 of them managed to murder over 3,000 innocent people in America.
But I suppose it's just because they were 'misunderstood', right?
Every one of the rats from the terrorist murder organizations needs to be hunted down and dealt with.
Then they can't harm us again.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy2610
19 of them managed to murder over 3,000 innocent people in America.
But I suppose it's just because they were 'misunderstood', right?
Every one of the rats from the terrorist murder organizations needs to be hunted down and dealt with.
Then they can't harm us again.
You mean like Osama Bin Laden?
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 05:18 PM
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Well we've wiped out 100,000+ civilians in Iraq mostly women and children - so that will make them think twice about trying that again - right?
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 05:40 PM
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"Well we've wiped out 100,000+ civilians in Iraq mostly women and children - so that will make them think twice about trying that again - right?"

Documentation or retraction please.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 05:54 PM
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I choose..... documentation (it's all over CNN by the way)

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/me...9/iraq.deaths/
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 07:20 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlightPower
I'm curious, do the American people generally accept the argument that you are at war

or

is the general view that you are a people at peace who are under threat of unprovoked terrorist attack?

or

is it that the Bush administration is at war and a peacable American people are at heightened risk of being caught in the crossfire
Your choices are too constrictive.

My personal view is that Americans feel that it is perfectly honorable & reasonable for our nation to cultivate friendly Capitalist and pseudo Democratic nations around the world through trade and commerce.

We also understand that this world view is mutually exclusive with the world view and expansionist goals of ideologue terrorists.

So we understand why they want to harm us, and that they will try to harm us, but we feel our world view is the moral and most beneficial to the most humans, so we must confront them, if that is the choice they give us.

Therefore, if they threaten us, we will try to kill them.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 10:23 PM
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That sounds completely rational analysis of the propaganda, and given that is what it is, I don't think it is beyond the scope of what can be handled. We handled the expansionist "Evil Empire" without getting ourselves or them blown up didn't we, and hey they turned out to be mates in the end. Of course we should confront anyone who leave us no choice. We also need the flip side, we need to give others a choice besides confronting us. One thing is for sure, the Bush doctrine goes way beyond building allies by commerce, he is setting out on an unwinnable war that has no logical conclusion anywhere short of the genocide - anywhere short of that he's just conducting a terrorist recruitment campaign. We need to be working with nations to root out terrorists, not threatening nations in a way that serves only to turn terrorists into heroes in their constituencies. Remember just about the whole world outside America (in addition to half the US population) views Bush as the worst US president of all time - he's like the cartoon bullseye on the backside of a hunted deer. That said, very very few people anywhere actually dislike Americans. So at a time when foreign relations are paramount in the security of America, surely it is incredibly important to replace a detested candidate with a man that others are keen to work with, a man who is able to represent and not misrepresent the character of the American people to the world.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 10:26 PM
Go get them Meg!
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You are incorrect. I have spent some time in the Middle East. There is no "Peaceful co-existance" with radical Islamist expansionism.


Irrespective of GWB's proclivities.


As far as what is and is not "Propaganda", I have lived in several countries around the world, and visited dozens of others. I don't require anyone's assistance assertaining the relative "Truth" of information.

Thank you anyway.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 10:30 PM
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No peaceful co-existence with Christian Fanatics, either.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 10:33 PM
Go get them Meg!
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Originally Posted by easytiger
No peaceful co-existence with Christian Fanatics, either.

You are confusing the belief in redemption and the prophesy of a rapture with intolerant religious expansionism.


They are two distinct actions. That they sometimes converge in the same place is merely happenstance.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 10:43 PM
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Three freaky cults, corruptions of major religions, that popped up a little over 100 years ago:
1. Wahabbism. An extreme cult of Islam, very popular in certain countries in the middle east. They have managed to gain great influence in the governments of Saudi Arabia and other countries.
2. Hasidim. An extreme cult of Judaism. They have managed to gain great influence over the government of Israel.
3. Rapturists. An extreme cult of Christianity. They have managed to gain great influence over the government of the United States.

All of them are just over a hundred years old, and have nothing at all to do with the original precepts of the religions they sprouted off from.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrsudog
You are confusing the belief in redemption and the prophesy of a rapture with intolerant religious expansionism.


They are two distinct actions. That they sometimes converge in the same place is merely happenstance.
Nosir.
It's about power. Just like the Wahabbists and the Hasidim, they want the power. Then they can kick back and tell people what to do, and get paid for it. It's the old "god says YOU have to make ME a sandwich" routine.
Like in Israel and Saudi Arabia, where the state pays for people to study religion.
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 10:55 PM
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Bill Berkowitz
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The Rapture racket
What if the Book of Revelation doesn’t mandate death, destruction and the annihilation of all but true believers?

“The rapture is a racket,” writes Barbara R. Rossing in the first sentence of her recently published book The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation (Westview Press, 2004). Rossing, a New Testament scholar and an associate professor at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago, maintains that the Rapture is a fraud of monumental proportions, as well as a disturbing way to instill fear in people.

“Whether prescribing a violent script for Israel or survivalism in the United States, this theology distorts God's vision for the world,” Rossing writes. “In place of healing, the Rapture proclaims escape. In place of Jesus' blessing of peacemaking, the Rapture voyeuristically glorifies violence and war. [...] This theology is not biblical. We are not Raptured off the earth, nor is God. No, God has come to live in the world through Jesus. God created the world, God loves the world, and God will never leave the world behind!”

What if the Book of Revelation doesn’t spell doom and gloom? What if it doesn’t mandate the death, destruction and annihilation of all but true believers? What will Rapture-mongers do?

The Rev. Tim LaHaye and his co-author Jerry Jenkins are as responsible as anyone for taking The Rapture mainstream. Their Left Behind series of apocalyptic novels, published by Tyndale House, have sold nearly 60 million copies and for several years have been regular staples on the fiction best seller lists across the country. The final volume in the 12-volume series, Glorious Appearing, was released this spring and it quickly found its way onto the best seller lists.

The Rev. LaHaye -- a longtime, high-profile religious right political leader who co-founded The Moral Majority with Rev. Jerry Falwell in 1979 -- does the novels’ imagining, while Jenkins, the author of more than 100 books including Out of the Blue with former Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Orel Hershiser and Just As I Am, the Rev. Billy Graham's memoir, does the writing.

Their message is a variation of President Bush’s “Either you’re with us, or you’re with them” war against terrorism mantra: Either you accept Jesus Christ as your savior or, the Rev. LaHaye told CNN’s Larry King, you will be left behind.

The phrase “left behind” derives from “the Christian fundamentalist belief in the Rapture [also known as the End of Days] that is, at the sound of a trumpet, Jesus will soon appear in the clouds to take believers up to meet him, thus escaping the horrible calamities foretold in the Book of Revelation,” writes Guy Manchester in Freedom Writer. Manchester, the author of Acts of the Apostles, a novel about theocracy in America, maintains that Rapturists believe that those who aren't lifted up will be left behind to suffer the consequences of “The Great Tribulation,” a seven-year period, the last three and a half years of which will contain great suffering and devastation. Jews, amongst others, will be left behind to suffer, but before it's over “144,000 of them will accept Jesus as their savior. The rest will perish.”

For true believers -- and there are many millions in the United States -- the Rapture is a glorious prospect. Some fundamentalist Christians see the war in Iraq and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as a foreshadowing of the coming of the Rapture, and as a way to speed up the end of times. The Rapture scenario is what many believe drives evangelical Christians to demonstrate their unwavering support for Israel. Rossing, who supports states for both Jews and Palestinians writes: “... the new movement of 'Christian Zionism' is a militant all-or-nothing kind of Zionism that scripts Israel as a player in the dispensationalist Christian end-times drama in a way that baffles even Israelis.”

Then, there are the prophets making profits off the Rapture. “Usually the doomsday prophecies are reasonably harmless,” Bryan Zepp Jamieson wrote in an April essay for zeppscommentaries.com. “A small group of people hole up somewhere for the rapture, and when it doesn’t happen, they just figure their leader made a mistake in the arithmetic, and most go right on believing. Sometimes the leader convinces his followers that the way to not get left behind is by signing everything they own over to the leader, and come the day of reckoning, the group finds that they got left behind in a different sort of way.”

“They (the Left Behind series) are instilling this terrible fear in children that people are going to be left behind. It is not biblical. There is no rapture in the Bible,” Rossing told The Rutherford Institute's Whitehead.

“9/11 was a wake up call to America,” the Rev. LaHaye told Morley Safer in his 60 Minutes II interview. “Suddenly, our false sense of security was shaken. Now we realize we're vulnerable. And that fear can lead many people to Christ.”

“I see many signs of the Lord’s return. This could be the generation that’s going to hear Jesus shout from the heaven, and we’ll respond, to be with him. And you don’t want your loved ones to be left behind,” he pointed out.

In an interview with The Rutherford Institute’s John Whitehead, Barbara Rossing turns the tables on the Rapture faithful who see death, annihilation and years of terror: “I was on 60 Minutes [II] with [the Rev.] Tim LaHaye, [and] he said that liberals have created this loving, wimpy Jesus and that we need the judgmental, warrior Jesus. The big question now is what is the true image of Jesus? A loving Jesus is not wimpy. A loving Jesus is precisely who Jesus is, and that is how he is portrayed in the Gospels.”

Rather than scare the living daylights out of folks, the book of Revelation actually aims “to comfort and inspire Christians to a vision of hope,” Rossing stated. “In the early Roman Empire, when it looked like violence was getting out of hand -- much like things today -- it was a message to people that the empire would not last much longer and that the Emperor was not the one in charge of the world. Jesus is in our midst, but He is not the avenging warrior Jesus. Jesus is the lamb who is leading us to a different way of life -- one espousing love.”

The Left Behind series has helped launch an extraordinarily profitable cottage industry, where there’s no shortage of new products and spin-offs: Left Behind II: Tribulation Force -- the second Left Behind movie starring Kirk Cameron -- is now available on DVD; The Left Behind Prophecy Club is a fee-based website and newsletter designed “to help people understand how current events may actually relate to End Times prophecy;” “In a world where madmen rule, the voice of God will not be silenced,” reads the promotional blurb for Jerry Jenkins’ latest novel titled Silenced (Book 2 in the SOON trilogy).

For those looking for up-to-the-minute Rapture scorecards, Webmaster Todd Strandberg has created The Rapture Index, which he somewhat playfully calls a “Dow Jones Industrial Average of End Time activity.” The Rapture Index tracks of a number of indicators, aimed at gauging how bad things are on earth. Included in the mixed bag of categories or “indicators” are: Bible-related categories which include False Christs, Satanism, the Mark of the Beast and The Anti-Christ; financial indicators, including stats on unemployment, inflation, interest rates, and oil prices; cultural issues including drug use, liberalism, and civil rights; and then, there are your natural disasters -- earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, plagues and drought.

Two weeks after 9/11, “the index hit an all-time high of 182... as the bandwidth nearly melted under the weight of 8 million visitors,” Time magazine reported. As of September 13, the index stood at 151, the highest number this year. (Interestingly, the record low number, 93, was registered on December 12, 1993, the end of Bill Clinton's first year as president.)

Comparing the theme of the “Left Behind” series to ethnic cleansing, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof recently wrote: “If a Muslim were to write an Islamic version of 'Glorious Appearing' and publish it in Saudi Arabia, jubilantly describing a massacre of millions of non-Muslims by God, we would have a fit.” Kristoff added that “It's disconcerting to find ethnic cleansing celebrated as the height of piety.”
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Old Oct 29, 2004, 11:16 PM
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"3. Rapturists. An extreme cult of Christianity. They have managed to gain great influence over the government of the United States."

Please expand. Is this a "secret" cabal like the masons?
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