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Old Oct 07, 2004, 02:08 PM
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WimH's Avatar
Belgium, Flemish Region, Oosterzele
Joined Dec 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by down_shift
Don, the Weasel looks to be a "legal" F5F airframe:
it is, but you'll never fit 10 sub-c cells in there....
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Old Oct 07, 2004, 02:37 PM
slope'n the Colombian Andes
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Colombia, Antioquia, Girardota
Joined Mar 2001
4,673 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
The main problem with sending the models to the US are the costs for the shipment. Itsīs about 200$ for a parcel. The parcel is quite large and therefore expensive. But if someone in the US would organize an aggregated order for about 10 models the shipment will be about 20-30 $ for each model.
Victors freight estimate would be close if 10 models were to fit in the same-sized box as 1. They don't, the box gets bigger, as do freight charges for dimensional weight. Thus the freight for 10 models is at least double that of one.
Now, unless these models are all for the personal use of the addressee, formal customs entry is required by law. Formal entry certainly is required for all dealers. This is not duty (there is none on "toys"), but there is a processing fee.
We have a customs broker in Portland, OR (int'l airport), who does this for us and gets the box delivered to our location 120 miles south. This service costs about $250 per shipment. I could do this myself, but it means 4-5 hours driving round trip and working with US Customs employees.
So now, the freight for 10 models is $65-70 per model, which is right about what we're paying.

Dieter Mahlein, ShredAir
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Last edited by ShredAir; Oct 07, 2004 at 02:41 PM.
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Old Oct 07, 2004, 04:17 PM
Registered User
Berlin, Germany
Joined Mar 2002
316 Posts
Well,
I do not know the details about US taxes and shipment within the US.
I just thougt about a way how to get the planes to the US. Itīs also not big buisness what Iīm talking about. But F5B has a lot to do with money. Its probably the most expensive FAI class. The fact that Wolf Fickenscher has rent the Raketenwurm molds changed a lot for F5B in Europe. Many people wouldnīt be able to affort a state of the art F5B ship like the Raketenwurm if they wouldnīt share a mold.

Viktor
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Old Oct 07, 2004, 06:41 PM
BANNED!!!
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Laurel, MD
Joined May 2001
12,683 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Well,
I do not know the details about US taxes and shipment within the US.
I just thougt about a way how to get the planes to the US. Itīs also not big buisness what Iīm talking about. But F5B has a lot to do with money. Its probably the most expensive FAI class. The fact that Wolf Fickenscher has rent the Raketenwurm molds changed a lot for F5B in Europe. Many people wouldnīt be able to affort a state of the art F5B ship like the Raketenwurm if they wouldnīt share a mold.

Viktor
I simply don't understand why we don't build molded f5b planes here. (I am going to build one its just going to take me some time, as I don't have molds or anything) Sure its hard work, sure its expensive to learn, but it seems to me that there should be a way to make an f5b in the us. If I could do the layup/build process over the course of a week, with about $50 worth of material, it would be worth the expense to learn how to do this...

Jay
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Old Oct 07, 2004, 06:44 PM
sloping addict
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France
Joined Feb 2003
1,536 Posts
Viktor, I cannot agree more and I thank Wolf for that. Racketenwurm was the sole true F5B frame really affordable when I looked, and I'm a happy owner of one.

For info, it seems that Racketenwurm 2B (Full moving T tail) won't be publicly released before WC 2006, but the Racketenwurm 2 should be released before (early 2005 maybe ???)

...Proto
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Old Oct 07, 2004, 07:08 PM
sloping addict
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France
Joined Feb 2003
1,536 Posts
Jay, maybe YOU can do it personally, although the material will be more than $50 (93g carbon, Kevlar, selected balsa sheets, almost a full 100m roll of carbon roving, special paint etc, will average out to maybe $ 120 or so IF you can get good deals on raw material but once you round material lengthes up, then you'd pay extra $$$$, but have excess material to make several other planes). So a first plane will set you off maybe $1000+, only subsequent ones will be below $200 + your time.

The mold itself is a very painful process, I have participated a little to creation of one. Cheapest option, using wooden frame + thick glass + about 2 kg of gelcoat and 2 kg of resin still costs $200+, assuming you have plugs already. And it basically takes several months unless you can really dedicate full days to it. And then 6 months after you might notice your mold has become somehow warped. Oh well.

Industrially, wages in the US are just too high to even compensate shipments costs from eastern Europe or asia. Why do you think our electric drills are made in China...

I don't want to discourage you, I like people building their own stuff, but just don't expect you'll save money out of it. Maybe once you make 10 good planes and sell some of those, you'd have evened out the investments, but probably not your time.

I'll wait for the thread
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Old Oct 07, 2004, 07:25 PM
Beware of squishy fishy
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Carlisle, PA, United States
Joined May 2003
684 Posts
I have the utmost respect for anyone who takes a serious plunge into building their own ships. After getting a first hand demonstration of the materials and skill required to build a solid, good looking, good flying plane, I quickly realized it was something very challenging to do. I also got the sense that Marcus and the other builders in Germany tended to have local access to wide array of advanced materials and, most importantly, local access to other builders.

I can't wait to see Soho's first plane (no sarcasm). I think eventually he'll go for it. Also, only then can he smash the delusion that these planes can be built for $50 in raw materials (or maybe the $50 ref is just a troll for a happless fishstyk)
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Old Oct 07, 2004, 09:48 PM
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Laurel, MD
Joined May 2001
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I know the fuses are $5 worth of material and probably less...
The wings, are a different issue, but you are looking at the carbon being the most expensive part of the wing, glass, and balsa/foam can be had realtively inexpensively. Maybe its $100 worth of material I don't know.

As for the time, well I do this hobby to relax and learn. So its my spare time anyway. I am not trying to make any money at it. I just think it would be nice to have 3-4 good planes ready to go without spending 2-4 thousand dollars.

j
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Old Oct 08, 2004, 12:47 AM
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San Diego, CA, USA
Joined Mar 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soholingo
I know the fuses are $5 worth of material and probably less...
For a fiberglass S400-sized fuselage, yes. Not for a Kevlar (or even glass) F5B fuselage.

-David
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Old Oct 08, 2004, 01:33 AM
Tragic case
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Sydney Australia
Joined Feb 2002
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I am perfectly happy to pay the price for a quality product. The labourer being worthy of his hire and all that.

Just looking at the economics. Assume materials are $120 after allowing for waste and we allow 10 standard hours for production (in 10 hours I can't make a cup of coffee but a well organized, batch oriented, professional workshop can get a lot done) at whatever wage rate you want to use.

There are obviously other overheads to be recovered in professional operation, like rent, insurance, power, tools etc.

Then there is the cost of the mold to be recovered. Because the F5B designs tend to outdate fairly fast (lifespan about 18 months) you need a fair production rate to recover the cost. It seems that the best molds would be produced on a computer, perhaps without a plug, and then cut from aluminium or whatever with a CNC machine.

Rationally therefore you do the design of the machine on your computer, send the resulting design out to an expensive CNC mold cutting machine in the USA or even Europe then hand the assembly over a low wage rate regime, but with appropriate training and quality control. You probably need to produce 40-50 machines to get your mold costs back. That's quite a lot of high performance gliders to sell in one year.

Am I missing something? Like I say I'm happy to pay up when required.

dave
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Old Oct 08, 2004, 01:42 AM
275mph club
M. Koch's Avatar
Regensburg, Germany
Joined Apr 2003
509 Posts
Hi Jay!
Youīre completely wrong, when you think you can a competition plane for 50 US dollar as i told you some months ago!
We did some calculations for every material we used for our competition airplanes Eisvogel and Raketenwurm including paint, resin, carbon, glass, aramid, wax and so on and the result was about 150-200 Euro (nearly 200 US Dollar )! And i bought all the materials in extreme big packs to get cheap prizes (100 mē per glass cloth of different weights, 1 kg of high modulus carbon town (2,5 km ), 14 kg resin and so on) and spent more than 3000,- Euro this year! Alone weight selected balsa special made and selected for me is about 5,- Euro per sheet and i need 2,5 per plane! Fishstyx got a good insight in how difficult it is to build a competition F5B airframe when he visited me in Germany and took very nice videos of me flying my planes ! Thanks again Fishstyx for the nice videos! It could be cheaper if you have access to cheaper aramid and carbon from Russia or Tchech Republic but not here in Germany or the US, youīll see! If you want to use High modulus carbon cloth for your planes like Wolf did it in his competition planes, you have to pay about 100-140 Euro/mē and you need more than half of a mē, so your 50 US dollars are gone only buying the carbon cloth only for the wing!
Iīm really interested in seeing your first 50 US dollar "F5B competition plane" exploding in the first turn because there is no money left for enough resin in your budget !
Try it and show us the results! We are all really anxious to see your "competition plane"!
Sorry for destroying your dreams !

Ciao, Marcus
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Old Oct 08, 2004, 02:29 AM
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Old Oct 08, 2004, 03:12 AM
We come in peace.
Synth's Avatar
Canada, BC, Penticton
Joined Feb 2003
1,760 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by soholingo
I I just think it would be nice to have 3-4 good planes ready to go without spending 2-4 thousand dollars.

j
And those are just the airframes. Scary thought eh.
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Old Oct 08, 2004, 04:59 AM
Speed Demon
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Antioch,CA,USA
Joined Dec 1999
12,296 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by soholingo
Andy where can you buy the sirius?
PG GERASIS



This is the same company that makes the "Smart". Not sure if it qualifies for F5B but this is what the webpage advertises.

SIRIUS cat.nr. 6830

All fiberglass competition model of category F5B. Model is constructed of carbon, aramid and glass fabrics. Wing is made by sandwich technology into the negative moulds, spar is reinforced with carbon roving. Aramid fuselage is in white color.


Wingspan: 1700 mm
Length: 930 mm
Wing area: 28,3 dm
Flying weight: 2100 g
Charge: 75 g/dm
Wing profile: MH 30 m od
Engine: Kontronik 42/24-5,2
Accus 37 cells SANYO 1000 SCR

Fuselage: 6830.1
Wing: 6830.2
Elevator: 6830.3
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Old Oct 08, 2004, 06:55 AM
I do this for fun!
Sunshine Coast, Australia
Joined Sep 2004
1,191 Posts
Soho,

you are right when you say you can produce an airframe a week from a set of molds. A mate and I designed, CAD'ded, CAM'med and had CNC'ed a set of F3B molds some years ago. For info we used MDF board for the molds, but these days I believe 'Corian' or one of the other synthetic kitchen top materials may be a good choice. I know someone who's using it for propeller molds.

We had the molds CNC cut at a University which had 2 big beautiful machines which sat idle nearly all the time. When we showed them what we wanted to do they not only allowed us access to a machine, they helped set up the CAM file (which instructs the machine how to do the cutting).

When we started producing airframes, we found that each one got progressively lighter, stronger and better finished as we learned and improved.

So you can definitely do it yourself, and you'll learn heaps. You probably won't be saving money until you have produced 4 - 6 airframes, however after that the savings add up pretty quickly.

The other big benefit is you can fly much more aggressively (and hence improve faster) when you know your replacement airframe is only a week away and all the materials are already paid for!

The only downside is that the molds don't last indefinitely. However you can always see that as a chance to improve the design

So go for it! And good luck.

Ken.
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