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Old Oct 05, 2004, 02:42 PM
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soholingo's Avatar
Laurel, MD
Joined May 2001
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Affordable Surprises???

Looks like Dieter may be selling surprises at a decent price.

Dieter a couple of questions....

Can I get flaps?
Are the fuses made with kevlar like the s11?
Whats the difference between the 5 and the 6 besides airfoil and wing length?
How big of a prop can they take?

Two piece wing option?

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283255
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Old Oct 05, 2004, 06:41 PM
slope'n the Colombian Andes
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Colombia, Antioquia, Girardota
Joined Mar 2001
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What a nice surprise... : ) there is some interest...
I'd like to shift discussion of the thread to here, so I'll attempt to answer questions from the announcement thread.
First, the nice thing about a Surprise is, it IS a Surprise. These 5s and 6s are built exactly like the current ones, aramid, carbon, everything is the same. In fact at first glance, and even at second, they look like a S11. These planes take 18" props. We let the customers implement the 2-piece wing option themselves, and we recommend to use an axe, because carbon dulls the saw blades very quickly.
Flaps are available top- or bottom-hinged for little extra money, my guess is $30.
These models are designed for 27-cell systems, so they will hold the current 16-18 cell ones. I assume a plane designed for 16-cell/200A, will simply be just big enough to make the FAI loading (75g/dm2) and have noses long enough to accomodate 18" props; kinda like a Surprise 6.
The RG-14 and MH-30 airfoils are both very fast and similar enough for other factors to wash out their differences. One such factor is wing planform, and that is proven Surprise. If you want to use snap-flap in turns, I'd stay away from the RG-14, and even the MH-30 is probably not all that happy with it. I consider snap-flap on these planes difficult to implement, and I achieve better results by optimizing the CG.
For a 2-meter Surprise, we can offer a similar deal on the Surprise 7. Please let me know if there is interest, and I'll get more info.

Dieter Mahlein, ShredAir
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Old Oct 05, 2004, 06:49 PM
H2OFLY
Portland Oregon USA
Joined Feb 2000
2,509 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShredAir
snip....We let the customers implement the 2-piece wing option themselves, and we recommend to use an axe, because carbon dulls the saw blades very quickly.....Dieter Mahlein, ShredAir
What!? Dieter has a sense of humor!?

But we all knew that, didn't we?

Hey, Dieter,

Sorry I missed Saturday at your Quiet Fly event in Washougal...but glad I got to see you both, again. Doing it again next year?

Terry in Portland
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Old Oct 05, 2004, 07:08 PM
F5B, helis...too much
Fairfax, VA
Joined Mar 2002
370 Posts
Snap

What is snap-flap?

The main advantages, I believe, of a plane with flaps, vs no flaps, are better spot landings and faster turns, right? My planes don't have flaps. I use spoilerons for the landings. Can you still be competitive with a no-flap plane?

tufnik
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Old Oct 05, 2004, 07:23 PM
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Canada, BC, Penticton
Joined Feb 2003
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Surprise 7 sounds cool. Which airfoil?
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Old Oct 05, 2004, 07:33 PM
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United States, VA, Leesburg
Joined Feb 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tufnik
What is snap-flap?

tufnik
Mixing flaps that deploy with up elevator. I have a few millimeters of flaps on a proportional link to up elevator on the Avionik. Works well by adding lift during the tight turns. HD-43 6.5% airfoil

Dieter - several of us are thinking about moving to 16 cells next year. What are the differences between the Surprise 5 or 6 to the 11?
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Old Oct 05, 2004, 09:22 PM
slope'n the Colombian Andes
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Colombia, Antioquia, Girardota
Joined Mar 2001
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The S7 airfoil is the MH-30 7.4%, which probably the same as the 6, but I have to check that.
Russ, as I said, at first and second glance, the differences between 5, 6, and 11 are minimal: almost identical planform and outlines, with the 5 having about an inch more span than the 11, and the 6 about an inch less. I need to obtain exact surface area data for a clearer answer. But mostly, it comes down to airfoil differences.
Another word on snap-flap: your Avionik must be flying at less than max FAI load, otherwise I doubt you'd see an improvement particularly with proportional snap-flap. If your radio allows, experiment with 100% of snap-flap deploying over only the last 30% of up-elevator travel. From what I've observed with FAI-max loaded planes, CG position is far more important to turning characteristics than snap-flap.

Dieter Mahlein, ShredAir
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Old Oct 05, 2004, 11:50 PM
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San Diego, CA, USA
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Dieter,

I tried the axe first to get the canopy opening for the canopy option. To say the least it did not work very well. I think that I should have used my chainsaw instead for the canopy opening.

Now, I am afraid to use the axe to make the wing into two pieces.

Chuck
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Old Oct 06, 2004, 12:16 AM
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Laurel, MD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcelectfly
Dieter,

I tried the axe first to get the canopy opening for the canopy option. To say the least it did not work very well. I think that I should have used my chainsaw instead for the canopy opening.

Now, I am afraid to use the axe to make the wing into two pieces.

Chuck
LOL!!! I forgot to ask for the canopy... Thanks for having my back Chuck
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Old Oct 06, 2004, 03:40 AM
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Belgium, Flemish Region, Oosterzele
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShredAir
We let the customers implement the 2-piece wing option themselves, and we recommend to use an axe, because carbon dulls the saw blades very quickly....
I know for sure that a 3 piece wing is an option for the Surpise 10, I've seen a couple, so there might be a way....
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Old Oct 06, 2004, 05:30 AM
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England
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I had a surprise 6. It was an extremely nice plane to fly and I miss it.

The wing is similar in construction to the S-11 except that there isn't a carbon D-box, and it a bit thicker than the -11.

The spar is very strong, if I can find the remains I'll post a picture of the spar.

I think it will be a great option to have one of these planes. I also liked the landing capability of the -6 vs the -11 (non flapped). On 16 cells and being a bit lighter they should be even better in the turns and landing.
As far as I remember the area was OK for the current rules so it will for sure be OK for the new rules. The wing was a little shorter but the chord a little wider than the S-11. In any case playing with the tail area can make planes legal for ex the S-9 with the tail from and S-7 would also be legal.

Regards

Kyri
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Old Oct 06, 2004, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WimH
I know for sure that a 3 piece wing is an option for the Surpise 10, I've seen a couple, so there might be a way....
Sure there is a way but Rudi doesn't want to make them...
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Old Oct 06, 2004, 08:17 AM
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Greensboro, NC
Joined Nov 2003
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Dieter:

No similar pricing options for a F5F-legal airframe of the same vintage? Need a good home for my 10 cell motor!

Thanks,
Steve
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Old Oct 06, 2004, 08:39 AM
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United States, TX, Rockwall
Joined Jun 2001
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Where is the info on the site?

Thanks
Kirby
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Old Oct 06, 2004, 09:23 AM
slope'n the Colombian Andes
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Colombia, Antioquia, Girardota
Joined Mar 2001
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A 3-piece wing MAY be an option, but why spend that money, lug the extra weight, and compromise strength if the wing is only 166 cm long? A 3-piece wing IS an option on Surprise 10 and 12 (about 2-meter span), as it is on the Surprise 7.
Steve: looks like we can do a similar price on the Surprise 7, which is 10-cell legal.
Kyri: thank you for the comments. What you describe is part of the reason why Rudi on is own, without me bugging him, is dusting off the "old" 5 and 6.
Folks, since there is some interest, I'll go back and get more detailed information; I'll have that in 24 hours. I did glean this old promo shot of Surprise 6 with Rudi Freudenthaler off his website (it was tiny, I doubled it in size, hence it's so crappy). There it says the span of the 6 is 1685 mm, which is 66.3", so I definitely have to get the better data.
Kirby, we're embarrassingly behind on our website updates, but Surprise 5 and 6 would not yet appear anyway.

Dieter Mahlein, ShredAir
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