Espritmodel.com Telemetry Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Sep 02, 2004, 08:07 AM
Registered User
Mr DIY's Avatar
South Africa
Joined Aug 2003
587 Posts
Thany you max.ferra

We see eye to eye and in agreement. At long last, another member on my side
Your doc gells with the stator pic I drew and your termination pic detail.
May the force be with you.
Mr DIY is offline Find More Posts by Mr DIY
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Sep 02, 2004, 04:58 PM
Suspended Account
ni'ihau
Joined Nov 2003
3,241 Posts
I would like to add my thanks to Max as well. However Max's assembly procedure winds all teeth in the same direction and then connects the leads to each tooth to accomplish the desired pole (N/S). It clearly works but it leaves the door open for potential misinterpretation. Can somebody familiar with LRK give the definative star (Y) hookup of the six wires. I know what Brian is saying and I believe he is correct. In the past I tried (123 together) (4) (5) (6) as the three inputs and it worked poorly. From my experience I concluded that the star hook up just sucked. The drawing below is the LRK winding tecnique ABCabc. It is not for debate. thanks
jimbo

I would also like to thank Ron for all the work he has done for us all. If someone wants to start calling them "LRK R" I would support it as a tribute to him.
Eljimb0 is offline Find More Posts by Eljimb0
Last edited by Eljimb0; Sep 02, 2004 at 05:01 PM.
Reply With Quote  (Disabled)
Old Sep 02, 2004, 06:05 PM
Boffin
rpage53's Avatar
Victoria, BC, Canada
Joined Apr 2001
3,397 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr DIY
OK .. I will not contest anything, merely make a few points this time.
Rpage53
Have a look at the distributed Y diagram below. Your statement is contesting “5 years of German engineering” as somebody else here put it to me.
Of course you are contesting what is common knowledge. If you look at the distributed LRK diagram you posted and FOLLOW IT, you see that the starts and ends are joined just as I said.
Many of the windings I've seen in these threads are not standard. Let's try to understand the ones already available.

Rick.
rpage53 is offline Find More Posts by rpage53
Last edited by rpage53; Sep 02, 2004 at 06:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 02, 2004, 06:28 PM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
near Nijmegen, Netherlands
Joined Feb 2001
10,404 Posts
Classic star.
Imagine distributed star and don't wind coils 1,7, 3, 9, 5 & 11. Connect S1, S2 & S3. Gosh, I really had my gray matter in low gear all this time Anyone tried 25:50:25 distribution yet

Groeten Ron

Ron van Sommeren is offline Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 02, 2004, 06:35 PM
Boffin
rpage53's Avatar
Victoria, BC, Canada
Joined Apr 2001
3,397 Posts
Ron, that diagram has been posted twice and I referred to it previously. The R presumably stands for rest in German which is the remainder or end.
Right hand rule, starts and ends. You can't go wrong.

Rick.
rpage53 is offline Find More Posts by rpage53
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 12:42 AM
Dismembered Member...
arx_n_sparx's Avatar
Niagara Falls/Toronto area
Joined Dec 2003
4,536 Posts
<another edit> Ignore what I said a few posts ago. My head hurts

Brad
arx_n_sparx is offline Find More Posts by arx_n_sparx
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 02:05 AM
Registered User
Mr DIY's Avatar
South Africa
Joined Aug 2003
587 Posts
Ron … welcome to the force.

Firstly, I want to thanx everybody who has been participating in this “debate” for remaining cool under pressure. I am pretty sure tempers have been flairing behind the scenes … or maybe the dog being kicked a few times. Never the less, we seem to have come to an end of this chapter.

Rick.

I am following you and then also not.

I am under the impression that you are disagreeing with me based on the fact that I have picked up no support from you regards arx_n_sparx comments. Am I right or wrong here?

Now, where I can see confusion occurring is the naming of windings … and for that reason I have avoided using them. Pictures speak a thousand words instead.

Rick ..you have been referring to starts and ends. You start on one tooth .. move to opposite tooth and have and end. You then appear to grab the one of the remaining teeth closest to your end winding and make that a new start. I on the other hand do not view it like that. My next start is the next tooth at my first starting point. The distributed winding though has it like you are suggesting if you read into the meanig of R an S notation.
I simply see “R’ and ‘S’ as a means to identify how to hookup the winding as per the diagram below the pic. Sorry but I am an electronics engineer and that is the way we do things.

When I posted my diagrams showing the winding terminations, I did not refer to starts or ends, but rather showed how the windings should be hooked together. I even did that in a photograph. You could either agree or disagree with those diagrams.

Is there anything you do not agree with regards post no 567 in part 1.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&page=38&pp=15

Also there is the pic in post 444 as well

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&page=30&pp=15

Quote:
Many of the windings I've seen in these threads are not standard.
Regarding my posts, I far as I know, all of them are correct for LRK. If I have made a mistake in any of them, please do inform me. I am all ears. I certainly do not want to add to any confusion.

Arx_n_sparx ... we need to get you away from the dark side

Brian
Mr DIY is offline Find More Posts by Mr DIY
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 02:30 AM
Dismembered Member...
arx_n_sparx's Avatar
Niagara Falls/Toronto area
Joined Dec 2003
4,536 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr DIY
Ron … welcome to the force.

Arx_n_sparx ... we need to get you away from the dark side

Brian
Brian: Instead of tempers flaring, you made me literally laugh out loud! Well done, sir!

I think the problem may creep in as to how we number the teeth. Frankly, this has given me a huge headache when I realized that we were BOTH right AND wrong at the same time.

The dark side has some logic to it as well....

Standard nomenclature isn't quite "standard" between disciplines....

Brad

p.s. - rock on dude - your input into the BLDC thread still is incredibly enlightnening.
arx_n_sparx is offline Find More Posts by arx_n_sparx
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 07:36 AM
Registered User
Mr DIY's Avatar
South Africa
Joined Aug 2003
587 Posts
Brad .. I glad you were able to laugh at this.

There is a big issue here that WILL catch out many people. Most people on these forums will have wound CD rom motors first before trying their hand at an LRK type motor. When winding a CD rom motor, you keep all your starts on one side of the stator and progress around. When you start the next wind, you would typically pick a tooth next to your first 'start' wind. The is the logical way to think and do it and is documented in a few CD rom instruction manuals/documents like this if I recall correctly.

Now comes and LRK stator. People winding this new configuration will do it by the exact same method as I have just described for CD. Creating a start at where you last wire finished is not the way most people would think … unless you are coming from an LRK background and wound plenty delta motors I suspect.

As far as our notation goes, if you go as by what Rick is saying regards were a start and an end is, then it would be

AbCaBc as per the Nutpol tabe. That table however fails at identifying where starts and finishes are and Mayhem results

If you work according to my method, then it would be

ABCabc.

Eljimbo would see it like this as well if I see the full picture.

The thing is ... who is right on the start finish issue. Just because one person drew an LRK diagram like I posted, does not mean that this is the accepted norm. What do you guys suggest on this issue. Which standard do we adopt?
If you have a good argument ... time to post it.

All of this however is just the sideshow to the real issue. What I was showing as the hookup for a Star wind pictorially was always correct … right from my very first post. Had people agreed with that, we would have resolved the ABC notation very quickly.

Thanx for your coments regards the BLDC thread Brad.

Now the BIG TEST. Answer Eljimbos question higher up and see if we can make a Jedi out of you.

Edit: oops deleted edit


Brian.
Mr DIY is offline Find More Posts by Mr DIY
Last edited by Mr DIY; Sep 03, 2004 at 08:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 08:36 AM
Dismembered Member...
arx_n_sparx's Avatar
Niagara Falls/Toronto area
Joined Dec 2003
4,536 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr DIY
Brad .. I glad you were able to laugh at this.

There is a big issue here that WILL catch out many people. Most people on these forums will have wound CD rom motors first before trying their hand at an LRK type motor. When winding a CD rom motor, you keep all your starts on one side of the stator and progress around. When you start the next wind, you would typically pick a tooth next to your first 'start' wind. The is the logical way to think and do it and is documented in a few CD rom instruction manuals/documents like this if I recall correctly.

Now comes and LRK stator. People winding this new configuration will do it by the exact same method as I have just described for CD. Creating a start at where you last wire finished is not the way most people would think … unless you are coming from an LRK background and wound plenty delta motors I suspect.

As far as our notation goes, if you go as by what Rick is saying regards were a start and an end is, then it would be

AbCaBc as per the Nutpol tabe. That table however fails at identifying where starts and finishes are and Mayhem results

If you work according to my method, then it would be

ABCabc.

Brian.
Brian: that's where we got off of the track. If you do ABCabc, then you are correct. If you do AbCaBc, then I'm correct. So - we're both right and we're both wrong! I believe this is where your confusion came in. We've both been debating the same side of the argument!! (just from different persectives)

It's all a matter of persective (That word again ). I don't worry about the right hand rule or fancy drawings. I have the stator tooth sticking up straight up at me, and I ponder whether to wire it CW or CCW. This is ALL that I worry about. Before I do my windings, I tie a loose bow in *start* of the wire, and after I'm done with a certain phase, I bring the *end* back through the loop, and tape them together. Then I KNOW which end is which! This saves the confusion later on (as we have ALL discovered - to our chagrin).

I number all of my stator poles sequentially (CCW, and I wind CW - I be right handed) for the CDROM motors. I haven't done an LRK, but I still DO know the difference between CW and CCW....

With LRK, you MUST follow the drawings. This means "All of you people". Make sure you have things RIGHT.

Brad
arx_n_sparx is offline Find More Posts by arx_n_sparx
Last edited by arx_n_sparx; Sep 03, 2004 at 08:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 08:48 AM
Dismembered Member...
arx_n_sparx's Avatar
Niagara Falls/Toronto area
Joined Dec 2003
4,536 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr DIY
Brad .. I glad you were able to laugh at this.

Eljimbo would see it like this as well if I see the full picture.

The thing is ... who is right on the start finish issue. Just because one person drew an LRK diagram like I posted, does not mean that this is the accepted norm. What do you guys suggest on this issue. Which standard do we adopt?
If you have a good argument ... time to post it.

Answer Eljimbos question higher up and see if we can make a Jedi out of you.

Brian.
El Jimbo: (shooting for my Jedi rating here )

It depends on your viewpoint when you are wiring it up. I look from the outside of the stator towards the INSIDE of the stator for EACH tooth. I clamp the stator up in the vise and work at each singular wind. I believe this is what the nutpol site refers to (but then again, I've been known to be wrong before )

Brad

Is there such a thing as a quasi-pseudo jeti? I'll settle for that.....
arx_n_sparx is offline Find More Posts by arx_n_sparx
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 08:54 AM
Registered User
Mr DIY's Avatar
South Africa
Joined Aug 2003
587 Posts
Brad .. I find it amazing that you prefer doing it by notation. I much prefer looking at a picture. Its much more difficult getting it wrong if you can look at something. That way starts and end become irrelevant.. no so? Anyway thats just the way I think.

Ahh .. I can feel the disturbance in the force subsiding. Headache going away.
Mr DIY is offline Find More Posts by Mr DIY
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 09:11 AM
Dismembered Member...
arx_n_sparx's Avatar
Niagara Falls/Toronto area
Joined Dec 2003
4,536 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr DIY
Brad .. I find it amazing that you prefer doing it by notation. I much prefer looking at a picture. Its much more difficult getting it wrong if you can look at something. That way starts and end become irrelevant.. no so? Anyway thats just the way I think.

Ahh .. I can feel the disturbance in the force subsiding. Headache going away.
Brian: My mind is a strange thing I've always been better working from notations. Go figure.

do I qualify for the quasi-pseudo Jeti?

Brad
arx_n_sparx is offline Find More Posts by arx_n_sparx
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 09:20 AM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
near Nijmegen, Netherlands
Joined Feb 2001
10,404 Posts
Transformations that give the same windingdiagram:
Shift characters left or right: ABCabc = BCabcA
Inverting one or more phases: ABCabc = aBCAbc

These transformations can be applied in any order, as many times as you like, the result is always the same.

Groeten Ron
Ron van Sommeren is offline Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 03, 2004, 09:33 AM
Registered User
Mr DIY's Avatar
South Africa
Joined Aug 2003
587 Posts
Quote:
do I qualify for the quasi-pseudo Jeti?
No Brad There is the Force and the Dark side. Nothing exists between, only Ron with his last post LOL. I don’t want to go there right now

edit: before somebody thinks I am disagreeing with Ron or something .. no no .. just having fun. It's weekend and I off home.

The answer is easy. Clues are ... the teeth are labeled 1 to 12 and the first three windings (1,2,3) are of the same phase direction. .
Mr DIY is offline Find More Posts by Mr DIY
Last edited by Mr DIY; Sep 03, 2004 at 09:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LRK and other larger homemade brushless motors t-turley Power Systems 627 Jan 16, 2006 06:07 PM
LRK and other larger homemade brushless motors, part II Ron van Sommeren Power Systems 13 Jul 19, 2005 04:18 PM
"Effecient homemade brushless motors Show Case" jlm0924 Power Systems 1 Jul 13, 2004 07:31 PM
larger homemade brushless t-turley Power Systems 10 Jan 04, 2004 01:44 PM
FW Ta 400, 4.35m, six lrk-torquemax diy homebuilt brushless motors Ron van Sommeren Scale Kit/Scratch Built 0 Jan 13, 2002 02:52 PM