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Old Aug 22, 2004, 10:11 AM
GordySoar@aol.com
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n/a Posts
Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

Hi guys
Something that I have been wondering in the mean time is this:

IF the original LSF task completer's did it with out Varios and Picolarios
and SkyMelodies and ELV's, can someone who uses and electronic aide claim the
'same' achievement (or should their certificates be marked LSF-E) ?

I have seen newies shooting for their early level landings use Foamies to
tumble, smash and spin in for their 'task' measure quailifed landings. Not
exactly the spirit or of the capability of past LSF completers who were stuck us
ing the wood kits they built over months.

I know it's 'legal' to use aides, my question is : Is it the 'same'.

Gordy
Haven't used an aide for LSF..yet

Old Aug 22, 2004, 12:11 PM
James C Deck
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

Gordy,
Great point for discussion. However, carried to a logical though ridiculous conclusion, one might say that as the early LSF achievers used RES ships for the tasks, everyone should. Remember, technological aids and aerodynamic advances are just that - not guarantees that make the tasks a given. Otherwise, I'd be flooded with vouchers and announcing new Level V's weekly.
Jim Deck Secretary, LSF
Old Aug 22, 2004, 12:11 PM
Marc Gellart
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

Gordy et. al.,
Even back in the olden days, folks were using the old Ace Thermal Sniffer I would guess, especially for the XC tasks, they are darn near impossible without them. And in taking to guys who were there in the 70's contesting, there was a dicotemy in thought even then, but it had more to do with contesting with the Sniffer than using it for tasks. One thing for sure you had to have a large enough ship to even carry a sniffer around, but in pics I have seen, guys were plugged in for XC.
The using rubber planes to get those first pesky landing tasks out of the way, that is self limiting issue. Go ahead and land that way, but if you really want to progress to the levels that include contest points, etc. you will not get away with it for long since somewhere down the road you wil have to start flying higher performance stuff, whatever that is. In most cases these will not take the beating that foamy will and you will have to pay the piper somewhere, broken planes or learn to land correctly.
In the task I have completed, the two hour thermal and 8-hour slope flights, I used no telemetry, and the biggest help was other ships in the air. For the XC-L5 I have tried it both ways and actually got farthest without telemetry and with the oldest design of the tries, a Grand Esprit. But with a cleaner and significantly higher speed ship, I would not want to fly the course with out telemetry as I used at the Nats this summer.
With the onset of micro circuitry and the Picolarios, telemetry can just about fit anywhere, and their accuracy and feed of information is incredable. For the tasks, I say have ho, but just like a calculator in a math class, if you do not learn the fundamentals of the process, you are missing the point of the lessons to be learned.
Now, in a contest setting, i.e. thermal duration, telemetry should not be there, but that is another discussion to be had...

Marc
Old Aug 22, 2004, 12:11 PM
Jay Decker
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

I love these questions. Thanks Gordy!

The LSF Level V tasks are the same tasks today as they were thirty-
years ago. Yes, the technology to help you achieve the task is
better and, more importantly, the technology is more readily
available, but the LSF V tasks are the same tasks. Arguably, you
could say the same basic technology, e.g., varios without female
voice synthesized IC's and bagged fiberglass airplanes, were
available thirty-years ago if you could make knew how to make them
and invested the time to do so.

I recently completed my LSF Level V 10K flight. I used an original
design, homemade and bagged plane a friend made and a picolario. The
total time of my 10K flight was 44-minutes, the time spent flying
the course was less than 30-minutes and the plane returned to the
field higher than the start. I have imagined that the first guys who
achieved Level V spent entire weekends with their Sailaires trying
to make it 10K out and back and having to make numerious low
level "saves" along the way. I have wondered if my 10 K
accomplishment is somehow "less" because I did not have to invest
the same amount of effort. In my opinion, it is OK that did not have
to invest the same amount of effort on the road. I did read Helmut
Reichmann's book "Cross-Country Soaring", which changed the way I
though about XC flying. And, learned a lot by attending RC XC
events. What I think that it comes down to is that I still had to
learn to fly XC, and isn't that intent of the 10K Level V task?

Jay Decker
Kennewick, WA

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Old Aug 22, 2004, 04:11 PM
Lincoln Ross
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n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

I am not aware of any electronic devices which expand one's bladder or
are better stimulants than the chemical ones available. So I think the
most annoying task, slope, is still just as tough.

Lincoln Ross
needs goal and return for level 4, no electronic device seems to
straighten roads, remove traffic, and clear trees

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Old Aug 22, 2004, 06:11 PM
James V. Bacus
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Invitation to Gordy

I totally agree with Sieb...

By the way, we all flew our two hour tasks and you can't do anything but
match it now, have at it big guy. 8-)

Should be easy for a stud pilot like yourself. 8-)





At 11:01 AM 8/22/2004, Steve Siebenaler wrote:
>Gordy,
>
>As an LSF officer and recent Level V, I invite you to begin your Soaring
>Accomplishment Program journey and request a Level I voucher from the
>LSF. See the link below:
>
><http://www.silentflight.org/LSF_Base/application.htm>http://www.silentflight.org/LSF_Base/application.htm
>
>Once you have completed the tasks, you will then have a complete
>appreciation of the intent of the program. If you need support along the
>way, there will be no shortage of people to help you. Let me know how
>"simple" it is when you complete it.
>
>Steve Siebenaler
>Cincinnati, Ohio USA


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, AMA 592537 LSF 7560 Level IV
ICQ: 6997780 AIM: InventorJim R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

Old Aug 22, 2004, 06:11 PM
Mike Remus
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

Some of you will be surprised to here that my final LSF Level 5 task, the
10 K goal and return was done without my Picolario. It was on board but
unplugged when I wanted to launch so I flew the corse without it.
Normally I flew with it all the time. It was the good weather
conditions, not so much the equipment that made it happen that day.
Experience was also a factor. I had my share of failed attempts to teach
me a thing or two.
Mike Remus
LOFT Glider Club
Fort Wayne IN
LSF Level 5 number 112

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:20:01 -0500 "Marc Gellart" <ovss@papadocs.com>
writes:
Gordy et. al.,
Even back in the olden days, folks were using the old Ace Thermal
Sniffer I would guess, especially for the XC tasks, they are darn near
impossible without them. And in taking to guys who were there in the
70's contesting, there was a dicotemy in thought even then, but it had
more to do with contesting with the Sniffer than using it for tasks. One
thing for sure you had to have a large enough ship to even carry a
sniffer around, but in pics I have seen, guys were plugged in for XC.
The using rubber planes to get those first pesky landing tasks out of
the way, that is self limiting issue. Go ahead and land that way, but if
you really want to progress to the levels that include contest points,
etc. you will not get away with it for long since somewhere down the road
you wil have to start flying higher performance stuff, whatever that is.
In most cases these will not take the beating that foamy will and you
will have to pay the piper somewhere, broken planes or learn to land
correctly.
In the task I have completed, the two hour thermal and 8-hour slope
flights, I used no telemetry, and the biggest help was other ships in the
air. For the XC-L5 I have tried it both ways and actually got farthest
without telemetry and with the oldest design of the tries, a Grand
Esprit. But with a cleaner and significantly higher speed ship, I would
not want to fly the course with out telemetry as I used at the Nats this
summer.
With the onset of micro circuitry and the Picolarios, telemetry can
just about fit anywhere, and their accuracy and feed of information is
incredable. For the tasks, I say have ho, but just like a calculator in
a math class, if you do not learn the fundamentals of the process, you
are missing the point of the lessons to be learned.
Now, in a contest setting, i.e. thermal duration, telemetry should
not be there, but that is another discussion to be had...

Marc
Old Aug 22, 2004, 08:11 PM
Robert (Bob) P Andris
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

Gordy,

In answer to your question . . . Yes.

As one of the drafters of the original "LSF Soaring Accomplishments
Program" I can say unequivocally that electronic help was perfectly
legal then as it is now. It was looked at as being no different than
a full size sailplane having a vario as part of its standard
equipment.

As some people have pointed out already, the only telemetering varios
around then were homebrewed "Thermal Sniffers" and I think the Ace
product was called the "Thermic Sniffler"! I also remember that most
of them transmitted in the "Ham" band so that user licensing was
necessary. . . not many in the air. I can remember the original LSF
thermal duration contest, flown over a weekend at Nelson's
"Hummingbird" ranch in Livermore, CA, that drew about 125 entrants;
and only 2 or 3 "Thermal Sniffers" were in the air.

Since I was fascinated and licensed, I built and flew one regularly.
I can also say that I regularly flew alongside a tall lanky 15 year
old named Rick Walters who didn't have one, didn't want one (too big
a pain!); who always flew the pants off me; and everyone else, for
that matter.

Good Lift,
Bob


>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:24:00 EDT
>From: GordySoar@aol.com
>To: soaring@airage.com
>Subject: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?
>
>Hi guys
>Something that I have been wondering in the mean time is this:
>
>IF the original LSF task completer's did it with out Varios and Picolarios
>and SkyMelodies and ELV's, can someone who uses and electronic aide claim the
> 'same' achievement (or should their certificates be marked LSF-E) ?
>.
>.
>.
>Gordy


--
.................................................. ...........
Robert P. Andris
12155 Terrence Ave.
Saratoga, CA 95070
USA

(408) 252-5469

bobandris@comcast.net

LSF 004, AMA 5055
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Old Aug 22, 2004, 10:11 PM
GordySoar@aol.com
Guest
n/a Posts
Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?


Gordy,
Great point for discussion. However, carried to a logical though
ridiculous conclusion, one might say that as the early LSF achievers used RES ships
for the tasks, everyone should. Remember, technological aids and
aerodynamic advances are just that - not guarantees that make the tasks a given.
Otherwise, I'd be flooded with vouchers and announcing new Level V's weekly.
Jim Deck Secretary, LSF

I am not disagreeing on this one, heard it plenty but I am doubting where it
washes.
Getting time with an Icon is a lot harder than with the usually still used
RES. The reason battery consumption and lack of room for bigger batteries in
their fuses.

The sailplane is the sailplane and various designs were used since
inception, as have some electronic aides.
But the key word is 'aide'. My question was has a guy who used electronic
help to get is LSF time task achieved the same as a pilot who had no
electronic help.

(By the way, the Picolario's low voltage warning function announces a
problem with out having either the altimeter or vario function reporting).

The question was and is, is it the 'same'?

Gordy



Old Aug 22, 2004, 10:11 PM
Chuck Anderson
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you useelectronic help?

At 08:12 PM 8/22/2004, Gordy, wrote
<snip>
>
>The sailplane is the sailplane and various designs were used since
>inception, as have some electronic aides.
>But the key word is 'aide'. My question was has a guy who used electronic
>help to get is LSF time task achieved the same as a pilot who had no
>electronic help.
>
>(By the way, the Picolario's low voltage warning function announces a
>problem with out having either the altimeter or vario function reporting).
>
>The question was and is, is it the 'same'?
>
>Gordy


The answer is yes. It's always been that way. Many fliers used electronic
aids in the first 10 years of LSF. I achieved LSF Level 3 and 4 between
1974 and 1976 using the thermal sensor designed by Walt Good and Don
Clark. I gave up on using a thermal sensor for all except cross country
after 1977 because I found that listening to the thermal sensor distracted
me from the visual clues from the model. The only time when the thermal
sensor provided a real advantage was when the model was overhead.

Chuck Anderson




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Old Aug 23, 2004, 08:11 AM
Jack Strother
Guest
n/a Posts
RE: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you useelectronic help?

Stop It, all of you...!!!
You are killing me !!!

ROTFLMAO !!!
Capn Jack




At 06:13 AM 8/23/2004, John Derstine wrote:
>Is the RCSE the same since Gordy started posting? Or is it somehow
>enhanced? After all it existed years before his presence yet people now
>have the added advantage of his razor wit and scientific knowledge.
>People can now fly knowing all there is to know about soaring, the best
>planes, what equipment works best etc. Perhaps there should be a
>category for LSF stating LSF Level IV "G" for those who have been
>exposed to his formidable acumen.
>
>JD
>-----Original Message-----
>From: GordySoar@aol.com [mailto:GordySoar@aol.com]
>Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 9:12 PM
>To: james.deck@comcast.net
>Cc: soaring@airage.com
>Subject: [RCSE] Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic
>help?
>
>The question was and is, is it the 'same'?
>
>Gordy
>
>
>RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe"
>and "unsubscribe" requests to soaring-request@airage.com. Please note
>that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format
>with MIME turned off.


Jack Strother
Granger, IN

LSF 2948 LSF Level IV
LSF Official 1996 - 2004
CSS Gold
(House)
//home.comcast.net/~strotherbj/

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Old Aug 23, 2004, 08:11 AM
Steve Meyer
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you useelectronic help?

Gordy in case you didn't notice just about everything has been
improved. Radios are better, servos, batteries, composites, airfoils,
glasses, sunscreen, shoes.......

The only thing that is the same is the thermals and the pilots skills.

What's your point? We should not progress with technology?

Steve "No Leisure Suit" Meyer



At 08:12 PM 8/22/2004, GordySoar@aol.com wrote:
>Gordy,
> Great point for discussion. However, carried to a logical though
> ridiculous conclusion, one might say that as the early LSF achievers used
> RES ships for the tasks, everyone should. Remember, technological aids
> and aerodynamic advances are just that - not guarantees that make the
> tasks a given. Otherwise, I'd be flooded with vouchers and announcing
> new Level V's weekly.
> Jim Deck Secretary, LSF
>
>I am not disagreeing on this one, heard it plenty but I am doubting where
>it washes.
>Getting time with an Icon is a lot harder than with the usually still used
>RES. The reason battery consumption and lack of room for bigger batteries
>in their fuses.
>
>The sailplane is the sailplane and various designs were used since
>inception, as have some electronic aides.
>But the key word is 'aide'. My question was has a guy who used electronic
>help to get is LSF time task achieved the same as a pilot who had no
>electronic help.
>
>(By the way, the Picolario's low voltage warning function announces a
>problem with out having either the altimeter or vario function reporting).
>
>The question was and is, is it the 'same'?
>
>Gordy
>


Old Aug 23, 2004, 10:12 AM
GordySoar@aol.com
Guest
n/a Posts
Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

Gordy in case you didn't notice just about everything has been improved.
Radios are better, servos, batteries, composites, airfoils, glasses, sunscreen,
shoes.......

The only thing that is the same is the thermals and the pilots skills...and
electronic aides.

What's your point? We should not progress with technology? no point just
wondering if the task achievement is the same if we use technology that others
had but didn't use to complete the task.

Steve "No Leisure Suit" Meyer

Sorry Steve, I thought my writting was pretty clear, I asked a question,
didn't make a point. My question was and is this;

If someone completes their thermal LSF tasks using an electronic aide, is
the achievement the 'same' as those who haven't?
Research, not commentary.
Your first statement is correct all those things continue to change, but
they don't consitute an electronic aide to completing a time task.... key word
aide. :-)

Thanks for your reply though :-)
Gordy


Old Aug 23, 2004, 10:12 AM
Michael Neverdosky
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronichelp?

This is getting silly.

The achievement is the same.
The tasks are the same, the air is the same and people are the same.

Maybe the use of an electronic aid helps, maybe not.

Remember the discussion of varios in contests?
Most contest fliers don't use them because they are (or can be )
distracting.

A better question would be to the aircraft used.

As I understand it, in the beginning nearly everyone flew stick built
planes that they built themselves.
Is the achievement the same when using a molded plane that required only
a small amount of assembly and radio installation, and that has a far
lower sink rate and far higher penetration, launched from a far stronger
winch to astounding heights?

Ask yourself this;
If you were about to fly a contest today would you choose a modern
molded (or bagged) plane with a computer radio and no vario, or
a 30 year old gasbag?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

michael

> GordySoar@aol.com wrote:
>
> Gordy in case you didn't notice just about everything has been
> improved. Radios are better, servos, batteries, composites, airfoils,
> glasses, sunscreen, shoes.......
>
> The only thing that is the same is the thermals and the pilots
> skills...and electronic aides.
>
> What's your point? We should not progress with technology? no point
> just wondering if the task achievement is the same if we use
> technology that others had but didn't use to complete the task.
>
> Steve "No Leisure Suit" Meyer
>
> Sorry Steve, I thought my writting was pretty clear, I asked a
> question, didn't make a point. My question was and is this;
>
> If someone completes their thermal LSF tasks using an electronic aide,
> is the achievement the 'same' as those who haven't?
> Research, not commentary.
> Your first statement is correct all those things continue to change,
> but they don't consitute an electronic aide to completing a time
> task.... key word aide. :-)
>
> Thanks for your reply though :-)
> Gordy
>

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Old Aug 23, 2004, 12:12 PM
Tom Kallevang
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Is an LSF# - still an LSF 'Task' if you use electronic help?

You can make the same statement for the guy who uses others to help him
spot lift ... it's all just input in its various forms. I'd hazard to
guess that the guys for whom I've called air during their LSF tasks
don't feel their experiences were diminished by my help.

SIMPLY PUT:

The tasks are a means to an end ... it's the people, friendships and
experiences you accumulate on your way to Level V that is the true core
of the program and the strength of the organization ... you can't go to
the trophy store and buy yourself an LSF Level V plaque ... it must be
earned.




=====
Tom Kallevang
Wheeling, IL
AMA L292
SOAR
LSF President & Webmaster
LSF #303 Level V



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