Espritmodel.com Telemetry Radio
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 08:18 AM
You win again, gravity!
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Quote:
Wren, well...wren's design may have STARTED with the basic KJ66, but, over the years, they have developed and refined it to the point where they can definitely call it their own.
Well... my points were
a) even if JoeJets didn't knock off Wren's design, but started from the KJ66 or something similar, their turbine parts may very well, at a glance, resemble the ones from Wren.
b) what if JoeJets used the Wren design only as a basis, and added some improvements or cost saving changes themselves? At what point does the design 'become their own'.

I can imagine Wren being none too pleased with this... I wouldn't be, if a competitor appeared, offering a product similar to my own but at less than half the price! But... if they can show that the BabyJoe is essentially a copy of the Wren design, and if they have patented their stuff, then they can protect their design and get the import of JoeJets' products banned. This is not easy to prove though, and from a quick search I cannot find any relevant patents. It would be different if JoeJets would sell their turbines as Wren ones...
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 08:44 AM
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Bigger fishies that Wren have had really big problems getting knockoffs banned...unless there is some massive change forced by the US and other Governments onto the Chinese Government who forces it at gunpoint onto the Chinese Manufacturers, real change is NOT going to happen. Ask Microsoft, or any other major manufacturer about stopping chinese knockoffs. For that matter, ask an ARF manufacturer who does business there about how many copies are going out the back door of the factory while the "authentic" ones are going out the front.
The chinese just have a different way of doing business. It's just a different set of morals...what we consider "lying" is just "doing business" to them. You really canNOT apply our mores to them, they are not raised the same way and they are in an infinitely more desperate position and have a lot of catching up to do...it's kind of hard for big American companies to cry "unfair" when you look at the Opium Wars and such and see the way the Chinese have been treated by the West over the years, I don't think THEY have forgotten!
Example...when Amway opened up a store in Beijing, they had the usual Amway guarantee of "return any unused portion for a full refund." The chinese people would walk out of the store, empty 3/4 of the shampoo bottle into a jar,then walk back into the store and return the emptied shampoo bottle for a full refund. Did they consider this dishonest? Nope. Just doing business. If Amway was dumb enough to create such a policy, then why not take advantage of it? Anyway, getting distracted...

I think the purpose of Wren's letter was to establish that these are NOT wren components...a huge portion of the model turbine industry uses wren parts, and they seem to want you to know that they are not associated with jetjoe. No harm done, wren did not say anythign bad, from what I have seen, Wren has always deported themselves in a most gentlemanly English-type manner, they have stayed out of the stupid fights and just kept their noses to the grindstone, making great new products. They are not threatened by jetjoe, I just can't see that.
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 09:16 PM
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A Chinese knock-off? Hey why reinvent the *turbine* wheel? I think the burden of proof is on the company making the claim. They should buy one and check everything out. You can't tell just by a picture. They need to measure it, look for identifying marks, etc. You can't just make a baseless claim and not be expected to back it up. I could say that someone stole/copied my design for a model...but I would have to prove it. The whole basis of the American justice system in based on this principle of burden of proof.

I'm eager to hear what this little turbine is like. The price would actually put it within my reach. I can't wait to hear what you have so say on how it operates. I was looking at their website, but my net connection is so slow right now it was like pulling teeth waiting for stuff to load!

I wonder if they engineer these to contain a failure. I wonder how likely it is they would conform to AMA standards. The stresses are unimaginable on a turbine. Centrifugal force is a harsh mistress. I was watching "Myth Busters" on television, and they were investigating whether CD-rom disks could handle the high speed rotation of those high speed CD drives...they built a high speed disk spinner. It is possible for a CD rom to fail at 60x normal speed...which is nothing compared to a metal turbine turning 150,000 rpm.
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 09:19 PM
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I also read a thread posted in Jets, with some amusement, of the guy who wanted to build his own turbine engine...and also attemped to build a ducted fan with a glow engine and a computer cooling fan in a PVC pipe. Hope I'm never at the same field as this guy...and sorry if it's anyone posting here!
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mwraight
A Chinese knock-off? Hey why reinvent the *turbine* wheel? I think the burden of proof is on the company making the claim. They should buy one and check everything out. You can't tell just by a picture. They need to measure it, look for identifying marks, etc. You can't just make a baseless claim and not be expected to back it up. I could say that someone stole/copied my design for a model...but I would have to prove it. The whole basis of the American justice system in based on this principle of burden of proof.

I'm eager to hear what this little turbine is like. The price would actually put it within my reach. I can't wait to hear what you have so say on how it operates. I was looking at their website, but my net connection is so slow right now it was like pulling teeth waiting for stuff to load!

I wonder if they engineer these to contain a failure. I wonder how likely it is they would conform to AMA standards. The stresses are unimaginable on a turbine. Centrifugal force is a harsh mistress. I was watching "Myth Busters" on television, and they were investigating whether CD-rom disks could handle the high speed rotation of those high speed CD drives...they built a high speed disk spinner. It is possible for a CD rom to fail at 60x normal speed...which is nothing compared to a metal turbine turning 150,000 rpm.

Oh, I dunno...Wren has always seemed like a straight-up company, and they did not say "it was ripped off from us...", they just said "we had nothing to do with it". I would be pretty sure that it IS a knockoff of the MW54, sure looks like one. But Wren is constantly refining their engines, chances are it's not as good as the Wren MkIII or the PSTJ600, but it should do the trick, as long as it is reasonably well built.
Like I said, I don't think Wren is going to start running scared because a chinese company knocked off their engine...about a dozen people make MW54 engines or clones...I think MOST of them, though, use Wren parts.
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Old Aug 03, 2004, 03:35 AM
You win again, gravity!
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Quote:
I also read a thread posted in Jets, with some amusement, of the guy who wanted to build his own turbine engine...and also attemped to build a ducted fan with a glow engine and a computer cooling fan in a PVC pipe.
Nothing wrong with wanting to build your own turbine engine. I like to do stuff like that myself: come up with a crazy idea, then acquire the knowledge to build it (or abandon the idea as foolish ). As long as you know your own limitations... I hope the people on Jets educated this guy rather than ridicule him.
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 04:18 AM
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Could anyone tell me the web site of the jorjet?
I can not search out the jorjet.com,include jorjet can not be searched on Chinese sohu.com & sina.com.I think that jorjet is not in China!
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 04:48 AM
You win again, gravity!
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Their website is www.jetjoe.com
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 05:12 AM
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there are not anyproof that jetjoe is or come from China!

sohu.com & sina.com.cn are two of the most Gate website of Chinese, you could search the jetjoe.com on their search engine. the result is empty!

this is the result on sohu.com :http://search.sohu.com/web?T1=www.je...3=%CB%D1%CB%F7

this is the result on sina.com.cn: http://search.sina.com.cn/cgi-bin/se...t=%CB%D1%CB%F7

Maybe you could link their home ,then search the jetjoe.com
The search window is in the middle of their home page.

http://www.sina.com.cn/
http://www.sohu.com/
So, there are not anyproof that jetjoe.com is or come from China.
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Last edited by george007; Aug 05, 2004 at 05:42 AM.
Old Aug 05, 2004, 09:39 AM
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They are Chinese.
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 10:16 AM
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They are Chinese≠They are Chinese citizen.≠The engine come from China,
They might be the Asian to be able to speak Chinese Language,they might be the
foreign citizen of Chinese origin yet .
Because the web site or advertisement of the manufacturer producing JJ1200 or MW54 engine can not be searched on the sohu.com or sina.com. e'en there are not the manufacturer of other type microturbojet in the result of searching.
Why don't they advertise in China????
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george007
So, there are not anyproof that jetjoe.com is or come from China.
Someone on another forum ran a trace on the website and this is what he came up with:

This is what I get when I did a trace of www.jetjoe.com

Name: www.jetjoe.com
IP Address: 61.152.104.169
Location: Shanghai (31.111N, 121.367E)
Network: APNIC3


Still not a believer??


Chris
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 10:20 AM
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Yo, jetmang, I found that tape of your dad for you last night...if I send it to him(I was sending him some stuff anyway) will it get to you?
Are you a dad yet?
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 10:33 AM
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Why there is not any microturbojet on the market of Chinese? Why don't they advertise in China????
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Old Aug 05, 2004, 10:44 AM
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I don't know who you are, or where you are coming from, or why, or what you are trying to say, but my guess would be the market for model turbines within China is pretty small compared to the market outside of China, and the few guys in China who can afford to fly turbine have either already gotten their engines from elsewhere, or know about the jetjoe factory and can get them there. If I were jetjoe, about the last place I would be advertising is at home. Does that make sense?
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