HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Closed Thread
Thread Tools
Old Aug 22, 2004, 05:20 PM
You win again, gravity!
Muxje's Avatar
Rotterdam, NL
Joined Jun 2004
279 Posts
Quote:
I strongly recommend simply emailing or phoning Todd directly and asking for some answers to the pertinent questions being asked right here before flaming him further
Well... Todd's post on RcCanada was very detailed, to the point, and rational. But his post on RCUniverse (which I guess most of us saw first) is, no offence, an irrational rant. That is what lost him his credibility, and after reading just that I wouldn't expect to get an honest reply from him, were I to ask about these turbines.

Quote:
My prediction is ample servings of humble pie very soon here from some of these people posting to this thread.....I do indeed hope to see the appropriate retractions and appoligies once Todd's statements are indeed proven correct....
The way I read this thread, most people are sceptical about the JoeJet engines as well, even though we all hope they turn out to be good... I for one am glad that a few people here are willing to take the gamble with their money, despite their doubts and misgivings about an unknown company, and will hopefully post their findings here for the benefit of all. But told-you-so's are not in order if the engines indeed turn out to be of poor quality... we have no credible source to go on as yet. Todd may be right after all, but after seeing his posts which looked very much like a smear campain to me (you have to admit it looked odd), I will not credit his opinion too much.
Muxje is offline Find More Posts by Muxje
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Aug 22, 2004, 06:42 PM
An Aussie in Canada
Marty C.'s Avatar
Belleville, Ontario.
Joined Sep 2003
545 Posts
??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muxje
Well... Todd's post on RcCanada was very detailed, to the point, and rational. But his post on RCUniverse (which I guess most of us saw first) is, no offence, an irrational rant. That is what lost him his credibility, and after reading just that I wouldn't expect to get an honest reply from him, were I to ask about these turbines.



The way I read this thread, most people are sceptical about the JoeJet engines as well, even though we all hope they turn out to be good... I for one am glad that a few people here are willing to take the gamble with their money, despite their doubts and misgivings about an unknown company, and will hopefully post their findings here for the benefit of all. But told-you-so's are not in order if the engines indeed turn out to be of poor quality... we have no credible source to go on as yet. Todd may be right after all, but after seeing his posts which looked very much like a smear campain to me (you have to admit it looked odd), I will not credit his opinion too much.

Muxje- No disrespect intended, but I do not think Todd's postings look odd at all personally, I and many others who know Todd personally, believe that his creadibility has grown greatly because of the steps he has taken over the last few days to do his very best to warn people of the potential dangers associated with this product. He could have easily said nothing about his concerns and taken many cash orders upfront and ripped off many, many people.... but Todd is not that sort of guy, he went out on a limb with a business venture by associating himself with a product before he had recieved any product samples, and upon receiving demo engines quickly established that they were duds and imediately disassociated himself from JJ and has done the right thing by informing as many people as possible about his findings and concerns.
I also have taken the time to follow up my questions with legitimate inquiries directly via Todd and I would strongly urge all who seek a reality check here to do the same. You do not have to beleive him or me but its in your own best interests to call him and at least hear what he has to say before sending of the $$$....
Muxje also remember assumptions here can be just plain wrong, why? well once again contact Todd yourself for an easy to understand honest explanation as he has the answers you seek...Unless of course you can find JJ China...????

ET- Also no disrespect intended to you here either, but why do you discount some very credible comments in support of Todd Walters comments on this subject posted on RCU in regard to JJ by some 'VERY' experienced and prominent people within the North American R/C turbine community. I find that in itself rather odd personally?

Cheers- guys
Marty C. is offline Find More Posts by Marty C.
Old Aug 22, 2004, 09:33 PM
Rat Dude
mwraight's Avatar
AZ
Joined Jun 2004
596 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty C.
My prediction is ample servings of humble pie very soon here from some of these people posting to this thread.....I do indeed hope to see the appropriate retractions and appoligies once Todd's statements are indeed proven correct....
You ain't ever gonna see me eat humble pie, my friend.

No one here is saying anything about Todd that he didn't bring upon himself. His ramblings and terribly odd attitude towards the whole situation is what is getting him negative criticism. Obviously business savvy isn't one of his strong points. One thing any good business person knows is to never, ever, ever, ever say anything bad about anyone else - competitors or your partners. It reflects extremely bad on your character. People find it rude and disrespectful. Badmouthing will never gain you any business or any friends. As I said, Todd could have just said he was sorry that the JJ quality wasn't up to his standards and in retrospect he wasn't going to carry the product. End of story.

Instead there's this huge dramatic display followed by a negative campaign against JJ. That's not good. It's rude, crude and crass. This kind of attitude is what loses customers. Todd should learn to use tact. If anyone here is attacking Todd it's because of his total lack of tact. No apologies needed for that.
mwraight is offline Find More Posts by mwraight
Old Aug 22, 2004, 09:48 PM
Permanently Banned
Joined May 2001
3,816 Posts
Have to agree with all of the above, very well said, except:

I may still have to eat my slice of humble pie! If I get the engine, and it turns out to be a complete dangerous dud, well, then I'll eat at least half a slice, willingly.
easytiger is offline Find More Posts by easytiger
Old Aug 22, 2004, 10:53 PM
It flies? I like it!
Joined Apr 2004
868 Posts
Marty C., Todd could be the Pope but if you hand the rantings about children dying, body bags, endless rambling sentences with no breaks to a shrink he would find it indicative of underlying disease or some other form of altered mental condition. The "grandiose public resignation" sounded somewhat delusional (did he get any paychecks from Joe? Sign an employment contract? Have any formal agreements in place?).

PLEASE! What idiot lets kids get around turbines running up... Most fields keep ALL spectators 25 feet away, minimum!

Bottom line the vitriol surrounding his condemnation of JetJoe is way beyond what is required. A simple "not good enough, guys, stay away" or "not ready for primetime" would have done nicely.

I know folks who imported chinese products who failed because they got frustrated with the cultural differences. I imported ARF kits into the USA from China for many years and can attest that the required skills are not part of any MBA curriculum I am aware of. The process includes constant feedback and adjustment to materials and QA (fit/finish) to acommodate our market's requirements. They do listen... because the want to make money. We ended up exporting piano wire to them because they could not get the gear legs heat treated consistently to straddle the line between too soft and too brittle, for example.

There is absolutely no way "changing materials" is going to take "2 years". Chinese businesspeople are not idiots, they know they have a window of opportunity. However, one has to show them WHY a change is necessary. Not once did they refuse to make a change once a convincing argument was presented. At any rate, if there is a language barrier, things can be even worse.

Save your crow. Chances are we will never know what sparked the tirade. As for JetJoe, even if it had worked out, I doubt that 900 turbine waiver holders and 2000 jet pilots (AMA and JPO figures) were going to retain their interest for very long... ... then again, an affordable turbine might make a difference.

As for me, no GTMAXX products. You can't show your tail feathers this badly and keep/earn people's respect.

My dad said "follow the money" and I suspect there is some of that here too.

And one more thing... "Marty C"... What is Todd to you, personally? I find it interesting that you post product announcements for him ( http://www.tjt.bz/board/viewtopic.php?p=148#148 ). Also, since you are a moderator on TJT's website... must one assume you have some vested interest in seeing a potential competitor disappear? Your signature would certainly imply this:

Marty Cowan
TurboJet Technologies
FTE Canada
Sales & Service.

The question goes to the matter of credibility of your previous testimonial. How exactly did Todd do the metallurgical analysis to determine whether or not the turbine was the correct alloy? How does one "micron" anything? How did he determine it was not vacuum cast? What is a "temper configuration" and what does it have to do with shaft diameter? Do the chinese import Inconel (which is a trademark) 713 or is it their own alloy of the same composition? Yes, some of his observations are troubling (clogged injectors) but certainly nothing that cannot be fixed with some dialog and expert advice. Never heard any machinists or metallurgists use many of those terms.

And lastly... only in the fantasy world of model turbine pricing is a 2 dollar piece of diamondplate, a drawer slide and a fish scale worth $250!!!
Lomcevak is offline Find More Posts by Lomcevak
Last edited by Lomcevak; Aug 23, 2004 at 12:50 AM.
Old Aug 23, 2004, 12:31 AM
An Aussie in Canada
Marty C.'s Avatar
Belleville, Ontario.
Joined Sep 2003
545 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomcevak
Also, since you are a moderator on TJT's website... must one assume you have some vested interest in seeing a potential competitor disappear? Your signature would certainly imply this:

Marty Cowan
TurboJet Technologies
FTE Canada
Sales & Service.
I hate to burst your bubble mate But what competition, HAVE YOU GOT A JJ????????
As to vested interests, I have clearly and openly stated in previous posts both here in this thread and others as well as RCU and RCC that I am indeed a rep for TJT and FTE..... If JJ's products were legit I would bloody well rep for them too??? I wish you were right.......
Marty C. is offline Find More Posts by Marty C.
Old Aug 23, 2004, 01:00 AM
It flies? I like it!
Joined Apr 2004
868 Posts
No, Marty, I have 2 JetCats, a Wren and a T-500. I am not married to any source and, frankly, not particularly fond of any of their pricing (though Tiano did drop the T-500 by $300 recently). My first turbine had a wheel cut with a Dremel and the first one I actually flew was a JPX on propane. The prices are out of touch with reality. Granted, it may be that as a very limited marketplace model turbines are in the same category as the $250,000 coffee maker on Lockheed's C-5A... but it seems that lots of folks could join in the fun once the four figure barrier was crossed.

Maybe not Joe but someone will, sooner or later. Demand that outstrips supply at exhorbitant prices will come to an end. Simple economics will take over then.

Anyhow, care to comment on the technical questions posed by Todd's posts on the Canadian website?
Lomcevak is offline Find More Posts by Lomcevak
Old Aug 23, 2004, 01:01 AM
Registered User
GTMAXX's Avatar
Leetonia, Ohio
Joined Jul 2004
384 Posts
The engines are yours

...
GTMAXX is offline Find More Posts by GTMAXX
Last edited by GTMAXX; Aug 23, 2004 at 07:37 AM.
Old Aug 23, 2004, 01:03 AM
Registered User
GTMAXX's Avatar
Leetonia, Ohio
Joined Jul 2004
384 Posts
Engines have your names on them for a good sale.

...
GTMAXX is offline Find More Posts by GTMAXX
Last edited by GTMAXX; Aug 23, 2004 at 07:36 AM. Reason: language
Old Aug 23, 2004, 01:19 AM
It flies? I like it!
Joined Apr 2004
868 Posts
Do you realize that Chinese make up western names to engage people outside of China? That "Jeff" is not a common name in China? That Wong is the phonetic, nearest sounding compromise? It seems that the Chinese are capable of making turbines. Their miliatry and commercial jets fly fine. Mr. Walters, assumptions and a language barrier would more quickly explain this situation than a complex scam.

When I started importing ARF's from China the FIRST step was to get a translator and have a conference call. This was after determining which dialect of Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese, etc.) would be required. The other party had relied strictly on broken English emails until then, fearing even further misunderstanding speaking on the phone. They immediately accepted not only the invitation to a conference call, but to attend the Toledo show, which they did. We had a Chinese-American modeler act as translator for their visit because we wanted someone with knowledge of the context as opposed to a general translator who would not know the aeromodeling lingo.

BTW, the initial kit quality was less than acceptable but showed some potential, but with dialogue and communication it worked out fine and are now regarded as being very high quality kits. Yes, they too were ready/eager to ship several 40' containers when they first contacted us.

"Joe's" biggest sin, so far, was to set up a website and accept orders.
Lomcevak is offline Find More Posts by Lomcevak
Last edited by gregg f; Aug 23, 2004 at 04:13 AM.
Old Aug 23, 2004, 03:13 AM
Rat Dude
mwraight's Avatar
AZ
Joined Jun 2004
596 Posts
Quote:
instead of bitching here and you don't have the balls to even call me up so that you can get the full details - you both don't have the balls to even sign you damned names
Ummm, yeah...mwraight is my name...as in M. Wraight. I don't see the need to go any further than that in a post, but sorry if I don't give the full disclosure to complete strangers. From now on I'll be sure to post lattitude & longitude as well as a full physical description of myself and my credit card number if it'll make you happy.

I'm shocked, nay appalled, that someone with your attitude could have been in business for more than 2 hours.

Once again, you skirt around the main thrust of the issue that got you the negative criticism. I don't think anyone gave a darn about the quality. Everyone here seems to be well aware of the potential for an inferior product - and most of us weren't phased by that prospect. But what's up with the attitude? Do you even know how many potential and current customer's you've alienated, not just for JJ, but GT-MAXX? I think it's time you take the proverbial "chill pill".

By the way, your ad hominem attacks towards Joe, Easytiger and myself are also showing the depth of your character.

I hope, for all of our sakes, you aren't the next troll (like our blessed departed George007) who pushes this thread to the brink of extinction. Unlike you, we're interested in seeing if this product will make it to a broad market - and, if it does - seeing it improve into something viable.

You could've handled this much better Todd.
mwraight is offline Find More Posts by mwraight
Old Aug 23, 2004, 04:20 AM
Purple power
gregg f's Avatar
shadow hills,ca
Joined Apr 2000
6,592 Posts
Last reminder.
Personal Attacks are not permitted in the RC Groups forums, please abide by the forum posting guidelines.
gregg f is offline Find More Posts by gregg f
Old Aug 23, 2004, 05:05 AM
Vtol Builder
Lewist's Avatar
High Wycombe, Great Britain (UK)
Joined Jul 2004
997 Posts
i don't own a jet engine, know anything about them, i looked at this thread because it seemed interesting. a product that is half the price of its competitors is not to be sniffed at.

Todd, i think you have done everything that you could on this, and done it all correctly. From the sounds of it 'joe' is a dodgy fella, telling you blatent lies and missleading you and everyone else as to the details of this engine. it sounds to me like the quality issues will NOT be addressed by this company because they have already lied about it. if they fessed up from the start and said that they were not xrayed and not vacformed (or whatever it is) then this could have been addressed and maybe they could have produced and good engine, but the fact is that they lied about the material, the manufacturing process and quality controll. does this seem like a man/company that will be eager to strive for excellence. doesn't seem like it to me.

Mr. Walters is taking a strong stand point on this becuase of the nature of this product. if it were a toy rc car that might break after 10 minutes, things might be different, but this is highly sophisticated bit of kit which uses could easly have a catastophic failiure. pieces of metal traveling at high velocity, highly flamable fuel, i personly would not go anywhere neer one of these things (JJ or other make) unless i knew that it was a quality peice of kit. as for the schools.. when i went looking at universities, at one inparticular we were shown a demo of a small jet engine being run up. they had it in a test bed so that students could run it up and understand the dynamics of jet engine on a touchy feely basis as well as from books. what if a catastophic failure of an engine happened in these surroundings.. espcially on an open day.. now granted we were kept well away from the enigne and it was in a 3 sided enclosure which would pritty much contain an explosition or whatever.. but even so!!

i think that the stand point he has taken is exaclty in line with the danger of the product/general field of jet engines.

ok maybe he could have found out more infor before he put his name down, but from the sounds of it JJ were being very selective with the information provided to him, and the moment he found out they were a dud, he came out(so to speek!!!) held his hands up and told the world what the story was..

give the poor fella a break. if i had gone through all this sh** over the last two weeks i would have had a pop at you guys too! wouldn't you??

feel free to have a pop at me, im not going to post any more on this, but please, just think about it a little bit!
Lewist is offline Find More Posts by Lewist
Old Aug 23, 2004, 09:03 AM
Permanently Banned
Joined May 2001
3,816 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomcevak
Marty C., Todd could be the Pope but if you hand the rantings about children dying, body bags, endless rambling sentences with no breaks to a shrink he would find it indicative of underlying disease or some other form of altered mental condition. The "grandiose public resignation" sounded somewhat delusional (did he get any paychecks from Joe? Sign an employment contract? Have any formal agreements in place?).

PLEASE! What idiot lets kids get around turbines running up... Most fields keep ALL spectators 25 feet away, minimum!

Bottom line the vitriol surrounding his condemnation of JetJoe is way beyond what is required. A simple "not good enough, guys, stay away" or "not ready for primetime" would have done nicely.

I know folks who imported chinese products who failed because they got frustrated with the cultural differences. I imported ARF kits into the USA from China for many years and can attest that the required skills are not part of any MBA curriculum I am aware of. The process includes constant feedback and adjustment to materials and QA (fit/finish) to acommodate our market's requirements. They do listen... because the want to make money. We ended up exporting piano wire to them because they could not get the gear legs heat treated consistently to straddle the line between too soft and too brittle, for example.

There is absolutely no way "changing materials" is going to take "2 years". Chinese businesspeople are not idiots, they know they have a window of opportunity. However, one has to show them WHY a change is necessary. Not once did they refuse to make a change once a convincing argument was presented. At any rate, if there is a language barrier, things can be even worse.

Save your crow. Chances are we will never know what sparked the tirade. As for JetJoe, even if it had worked out, I doubt that 900 turbine waiver holders and 2000 jet pilots (AMA and JPO figures) were going to retain their interest for very long... ... then again, an affordable turbine might make a difference.

As for me, no GTMAXX products. You can't show your tail feathers this badly and keep/earn people's respect.

My dad said "follow the money" and I suspect there is some of that here too.

And one more thing... "Marty C"... What is Todd to you, personally? I find it interesting that you post product announcements for him ( http://www.tjt.bz/board/viewtopic.php?p=148#148 ). Also, since you are a moderator on TJT's website... must one assume you have some vested interest in seeing a potential competitor disappear? Your signature would certainly imply this:

Marty Cowan
TurboJet Technologies
FTE Canada
Sales & Service.

The question goes to the matter of credibility of your previous testimonial. How exactly did Todd do the metallurgical analysis to determine whether or not the turbine was the correct alloy? How does one "micron" anything? How did he determine it was not vacuum cast? What is a "temper configuration" and what does it have to do with shaft diameter? Do the chinese import Inconel (which is a trademark) 713 or is it their own alloy of the same composition? Yes, some of his observations are troubling (clogged injectors) but certainly nothing that cannot be fixed with some dialog and expert advice. Never heard any machinists or metallurgists use many of those terms.

And lastly... only in the fantasy world of model turbine pricing is a 2 dollar piece of diamondplate, a drawer slide and a fish scale worth $250!!!

OUTSTANDING. That sums up EXACTLY what I am concerned about. Totally, completely UNPROFESSIONAL behavior on the part of Todd. Top to bottom. From the VERY BEGINNING to NOW, completely unprofessional, unbusinesslike. He was in over his head. Period.
None of his critique, save for the injectors clogged with solder, made ANY sense whatsoever...the pics of the interior of the engine did not look "corroeded", they looked like he had had a major wet start. And some OTHER person pointed out that he failed to mention he had some wet starts with the engine...he said NOTHING in return, just ignored it. Then he goes on about how the battery did not come charged...
Gimme a break.

Now he has run to all the different websites and DELETED ALL HIS POSTS.
Hmmmmmm.........

Nobody will really ever know what REALLY transpired between todd and jetjoe or if another party was involved to influence the deal, but I am absolutely confident that there was SOMETHING else going on besides what Todd said, and I cannot accept his "assessment" of the engine at face value. As a matter of fact, the opposite. I DISbeleive anything he says.
By his own admission, he was lying about the quality of the engines BEFORE the rug got pulled out from under him...any reason to assume he is not still lying now?
If he is shooting so straight, why did he need to remove all his posts?

Anyway...enough of todd. I won't buy any of his products, either. I won't take one of the Jetjoes off his hands, either, I think he abused his, and I just can't trust the guy.

Not sure what he posted here above, I missed it before it was deleted.

Lomcevak knows what he is talking about...THAT is how it works importing from china, I have dealt with them a bit, and know some of the chinese people who make arfs and such, and it is just like he says...and if you do your job right, you end up with a superb product at a superb price.

Where do you think the BVM Kingcat comes from?
So don't tell me the Chinese cannot make a turbine...next thing you tell me they cannot make a BVM quality airplane...tell that to BV.
easytiger is offline Find More Posts by easytiger
Old Aug 23, 2004, 12:42 PM
An Aussie in Canada
Marty C.'s Avatar
Belleville, Ontario.
Joined Sep 2003
545 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by easytiger
Where do you think the BVM Kingcat comes from?
So don't tell me the Chinese cannot make a turbine...next thing you tell me they cannot make a BVM quality airplane...tell that to BV.
ET-
1. As far as I know the BVM Kingcat is made in Thailand along with Composite
ARF kits?

2. Who said the Chinese cannot make turbines,
conartists are universal?

3. Have you recieved your JJ as yet????

As far as I can see there appears to be approx about three individuals here on the RC Groups forums doing all the JJ trumpet blowing and rubbishing of GT-Maxx which is totally unfounded and of course "STILL" all pure speculation on their parts as they do not own or have yet even seen a JJ. So to the few ---your comments are your own personal opinions based on this threads input alone..... No offence intended to RCG or any of the other guy's reading this but the RC Groups jet forum in comparison to RCU appears as if it is not frequented by as many experienced turbine, builders, operators or reps from legit companys from what I have seen to date....
If the doubters were wanting to sincerly discuss the JJ facts openly with the majority of experienced turbine manufacturers, homebuilders and owners who do know a lot about these specific products and the exact circumstances revolving around JJ's past and present dealings you should take the time to read the various RCU postings on this subject also with the much positive feedback on Todd's reputation and his companys products which a few unknown guy's (apart from EasyTiger) here alone it seem's are intent on flaming ????......Go on over to RCU jet forums and please voice your very opiniated concerns about Todd's business ethics and see what sort of feed back you get from the majority of jet modellers.......If a few guy's here alone want to continue to speculate and rubbish legitimate people and businesses in the hobby go right ahead! You are in the minority just for the record, ever wonder why?????

please visit RCU and further voice your opinions about Todd, GT-Maxx and JJ where comments can be more openly viewed by the majority and responded too further by the greater jet flyer community otherwise you are beating around the same old bush here alone.
I do not see any further point in going on any further about this matter as it seems rather pointless....

I would like to suggest a sure fire way to end all the speculation and inuendo from all parties here and lets all agree to mutually set a cut off date for JJ.
If JJ cannot deliver a satisfactory running product by ---- Any suggestion ET as to a legitimate cut off date for JJ should be to put up or be dismissed as a non event. This has to be fair correct?
- Just a thought
Marty C. is offline Find More Posts by Marty C.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gym-E sucked into jet engine!! kansascloud Parkflyers 18 Jul 22, 2002 08:31 PM