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Old Oct 10, 2007, 04:22 PM
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Brooks -
Thanks for the info. Jump rings it is...
In your post, there are references to both mast hoops and rings used to attach a jib to a stay. On the Prince and brig, I think the mainmast is 1" dia. I haven't seen jump rings anywhere near that big. Split rings or paper rings could not be put on the mast after it is installed on these models. Making of a large custom dia. jump ring is a an option that could work. For square cross-section, tube and rod is available with that profile. The brass stock, when washed with ammonia, then blackened, takes on a ruddy brown cast that could easily pass for wood at the scale of our ships, esp. when slightly burnished.
The remaining piece is how to attach the luff of the gaff sail (correct terminology?) to the hoop. Think I may have an easy way to do that on an R/C model, although your description of tying is really pretty easy already. Was it just tied to the hoop as you describe?
Re-reading Slicks first post, he wanted easy on/off rope hoops. Maybe that's what I should try to devise. Do you know if anyone already decribes how to do that in a very EZ-on-off way? Would that be prototypically correct on an 1805 brig with wolded mast? Were the rope loops loose on the mast, or tied snugly? Hey HHappy - any more info on the rope hoops?
This middle ground between R/C sailability, semi-prototypically correct scale modelling and the scale performance factors (wind speed, water, etc) provides wide berth for diversity of approaches. I find it very interesting.
"let the jib slat" - does that mean "whip in the wind"?
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Old Oct 10, 2007, 06:46 PM
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I just lace the line thu the hole in the sail's luff and thru the hoop, making a zig-zag. When you pull the line taut, the zig-zag nature is disguised - I don't think it's prototypical. My goal is speedy on & speedy off :-). I don't have a separate line on the hoops, like the Gamage. It would be nice, though, because picking up only one hoop at a time with the thread needle is hard when they all stack up. It'd probably be impossible if the ship was bobbing :-).

Wolded masts are not smooth, so the hoops could stick on their way up or down, it would seem. Perhaps that is why the jackstay method was invented? I imagine the rope hoops were loose, for any mast, otherwise they could not move up and down easily - if stiff wood hoops can jam, I think soft rope hoops would be worse. However, Mondfeld's #10 shows "hoops" (seizings, actually) that are essentially frozen in place; for a mast with a standing gaff,(which brailed the sail to the mast, not reefing or furling it to the boom), a tight hoop on a wolded or on a smooth mast would not be a problem.

On the real ships, what I have seen is the wood hoops seized to little cringles, (or to grommets, can't remember which) like Mondfeld's illustration #8.

If Capt. Slick is removing his sail entirely (say to set another, smaller one in it's place), then frozen hoops would work with the zig-zag lacing method. If he is lowering the gaff to reef sail along the boom, then the hoops must not be frozen.

Real hoops have to open since one can't pull the mast. I believe the wood hoops on the Gamage were overlapped and riveted. You could overlap and glue paper hoops. It might be necessary to hold off waterproofing them until they were installed, to let the paper retain enough flexibility to span the mast.

The making of rope grommets (hoops) is covered in Ashley's book, pg 470. Making a loose rope hoop in place around the mast would be possible at your scale, I think. You start with a (long) single strand from a laid rope, circle the mast with the strand, then continue circling the mast as you twist & lay the strand into it's existing grooves. Better to see a picture, it's pretty self-evident what's going on then. I have nice, laid, cotton string from the hardware (chalkline section, I think) that would work.
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Old Oct 12, 2007, 08:25 AM
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The main reason I went with the jack stay is that it is very difficult to change out sails when the boat is in the water and the wind is blowing and I didn't like the way the gaff sails were rigged. As you probably figured out by now...these ships are bit of a challenge to pull in and out of the water...so a sail change is better done without having to do that. The jack stay allows the hanks (rings) to slide on and off very quickly and easily without having to wrap, snap or hook/unhook anything except the bottom end of the jack stay and the gaff carrying the sail. The use of the jack stay removes the luff in the sail and it looks much better too.

If someone can improve the the looks (hoops) and allow the ease of use to remain at the same level while being historically correct too....well I'm all ears!

I wish I could find time to work on this thing...the honey do list never ends...

Capt. Slick
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Old Oct 13, 2007, 11:42 AM
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I also was concerned about the luff of the driver. Think it keeps a more efficient shape if attached to the mainmast. The simplest way to do it that I could come up with was by using a jackstay - although this configuration might not be authentic for the time period - jackstays being introduced about the middle of the 19th century.

Anyway, the pix show the removable jackstay and the brass split rings ('scuse me - jump rings) on the sail. The jackstay is shown in 1 & 2 as mounted, with a kit truss collar on the bottom end. The top has a washer soldered on top to form a cap. Pix 3 & 4 show partial removal of the jackstay rod, up through the maintop. The rod has to be sprung slightly to allow it to pass through the maintop structure, but this does not seem to be a problem. The pix are slightly blurry due to the capabilities of my camera, but it is the best way I have to show the configuration, which seems to work for me. I find it to be quite easy to rig & unrig for sailing, although I have not attempted rigging it while the brig was bobbing in the water - But I don't foresee any need to do that.
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Old Oct 13, 2007, 11:48 AM
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Don - very nice work on the jackstay. Have my new jib crossover setup completed and working fine. Hope we get a chance to get out again yet this year.

Brooks - jib rigging and gaff vang pics are posted on the "...Brig..."thread.
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 04:53 AM
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hello

@brooks:
thank you for your replay, your tip is very good.

@Hoghappy:
you sail other sailboats ? witch ? i sail a other too.

regards gerald
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 07:12 AM
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Ditto on the jackstay Don….looks good and adds to the ship too!

Gerald…I also sail the Nirvana II yacht..see pic.

Well guys I got the Prince out yesterday, as well as the tug and 2 Nirvana’s. I hooked and landed my first new member as soon as he sailed the yacht. I also let him sail the Prince. I may have hooked another guy when I let him sail one of the yachts too.

It was a good day and bad day. The Prince sailed pretty darn good…no real tacking issues. The 3 boats all sailing together looked awesome…wish I had gotten some pics.

The bad…well…when I brought her in the last time I noticed that the fore gaff sail sheet had tangled on the main sail deck winch on deck and actually had pulled it (unglued) off its pins. I also noticed the main jib sheet was tangled around the anchor. When I got home I found one of the gaff sheets had fallen off the servo drum. When I attempted to place it back (after removing the drum) I dropped the drum and now I have a tangled mess. I don’t know if I can figure out how it was supposed to go. Looks like Prince is OUT OF COMMISSION for an indefinite period. This may be the reason I needed to add another servo just for the gaff sails. I think what happened is the sheets were let out too much… and when the wind came up they got tangled and fell off the drum.

This morning when I got up I heard a strange noise coming from the shipyards. It turned out to be the Prince…I forgot to turn off the electronics and the transmitter had died and the servos were doing their dance…hope I didn’t hurt anything!

Capt. Slick
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 08:57 AM
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Capn S - Bummer on the damage. I ripped off a davit and learned the hard way, too - loose lines find nice details and servos are strong enough to rip 'em off.
Something I did do - I added a 2A fuse in the power wire to every sail servo, including the new jib sail winch I just put in. I've blown a couple, and it's a bummer when they blow, but have done no damage to the boat or the servos.
A separate jib servo would be great, especialy on the Prince. You could even rig them to cross over if necessary. Haven't sailed the brig with the new jib winch and the two cross-over foresils yet, but it works well with a big fan...
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 08:16 AM
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Merry Christmas!
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 02:48 PM
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And a Merry Christmas to you, too! Happy Holidays from a bunch of swabs!
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Old Dec 23, 2007, 05:35 PM
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Merry Christmas Don!

What a great picture.
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 08:29 AM
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Time to unbury this thread again.

Just thought I would bring this back to the top again....why...because I can!

Capt. Crash
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 11:18 AM
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Good to see you back in the front....

Have you got the Prince back into sailing shape?

Jason
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 11:24 AM
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I need allies, you need guns!

Capt. Crash,
She really is a sleek looker and sailer...
Hey, how about some firing guns? Can do just one side. A broadside looks awesome.
Syren needs help.

Here's the gun making article.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=892

DanL
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Old Feb 15, 2008, 11:46 AM
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Wait....
If the Prince is carrying the pirate banner... Do you really want her "helping" the Syren?

Jason
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