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Old Sep 04, 2007, 08:12 AM
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Labor Day 2007 Cruise

Captain Sunshine and I had an interesting day of sailing yesterday. We decided to take the “ARTIST” formerly known as the “PRINCE” ………. out for a long over due shake down cruise. Having reduced hull weight with a lighter battery (see pic) and tightening up the sheets (except the main gaff somehow ended up with a half inch of play when I got to the pond) and taping over the ballast holes with duct tape, I fully expected a very fast and responsive ship. What I got was a pig! I still have problems tacking through the wind and almost ran aground several times due to the problem. She was fast, but not responsive. She would stall more times than not and I would have to let her fall off to turn and run with the wind, hoping I had enough room to keep her off the unreachable island shore line. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I have the sheets all pulled tight (except the one noted above). I don’t know how to adjust any other way. She is at correct waterline.

She is tough… as she was T-Bone’d at full speed from the Bristol Bay….no damage. She also took on large amounts of water getting the crew plenty wet, but not a drop made it below deck. The scuppers and hatch seals did their jobs well.

She was sporting the skull and cross bones to lure the Brits away so that she could then prey upon the juicy merchants…arrrrrr!

Some pics from this weekend....

Capt. Slick


“Weevils….the breakfast of iron men sailing wooden ships!”
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Old Sep 04, 2007, 11:35 AM
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Dang, your sail trim looks great! Wind looks good. Seems that you should be able to turn on a dime! Is your rudder turning too fast, causing a stall? Very mysterious!
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Old Sep 04, 2007, 12:11 PM
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I do tend to give her full rudder, plus... I move the trim tab all the way too to get a little more. I have some play in my rudder. I feel like I don't have enough. But...she seems to slow pretty fast now that I think about it. Maybe I'm killing the speed like you say. When running broad reach...I try to wait till she actually starts to turn before pulling in the sails. I found that it made no difference. Sometimes I was able to get through the tack by leaving the sails loose, letting the jibs luff and pulling them in after I completed the tack. This seemed to work better than tight sails. It was easier to tack upwind to port and down wind to starboard. Don't know why that would matter. Of course once I lost the battle and got caught in irons, I had no choice but to loose up, turn and then retighten and then complete a downwind turn. I also noted that she seemed to be able to tack in the lighter wind easier than the stronger wind. It seemed she would almost get through but not quite. And...yes the winds were very hard to sail in due to constantly changing direction. It seemed like I was always having to be close hauled no matter what direction I was going...lol

She sure don't sail like my yacht.


Capt. Slick
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Old Sep 04, 2007, 12:40 PM
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Capt. S - I don't think you will get responsive schooner steering w/o being able to adjust the main and jib(s) separately. Just looking at your ship, the rig looks pretty balanced to me. That means that it will hold a straight course, but also means it will resist turns.

You need to figure out a way to unbalance the rig to get responsive turning. Separate sheets would be one way. Dropping a halyard would be another, though probably more complex to engineer into your hull. You might look into a throw-over lever system to get differential sheeting out of one drum: the line from the drum to the jibs would not go directly to their clews, but to a lever. The lever would have sheets to the jibs, and would not sheet them in until the drum line was tight. Thus, the initial slackening of the drum line would throw off the lever, slacking the jib sheets, while not making such a big change to the mainsail sheet. Complicated to test and install, of course.

A bigger rudder might help, but you will always be fighting the wind (catboats have big rudders precisely because they can't easily unbalance, unlike a sloop or like a multi-mast rig).
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Old Sep 04, 2007, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooks
Capt. S - I don't think you will get responsive schooner steering w/o being able to adjust the main and jib(s) separately. Just looking at your ship, the rig looks pretty balanced to me. That means that it will hold a straight course, but also means it will resist turns.

You need to figure out a way to unbalance the rig to get responsive turning.
A bigger rudder might help, but you will always be fighting the wind
Brooks...I am beginning to believe that this is my problem too, however, I don't seem to remember it being so hard to tack when I first built her. Perhaps I had more slack in the gaff and driver sheets? I have removed the rubber bands from the clews of all sails....is this the problem? I had thought they were just there to provide shock absorbtion. If I were to keep the jibs tight and the gaff and/or driver a little looser would it make a difference? It seems that is the way my sailboat is set up (or is it just the opposite) and it works great.

Perhaps it's time to see what Philip has to offer for this problem.

Capt. Slick
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Old Sep 04, 2007, 04:15 PM
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Add a servo!

HH -
Only one servo on the PdN? Philip almost always has a very good reason.
Easy and cheap to add another, though. Proper servo is $39 at ServoCity. Would be easy to add separate control for the jibs.
Or, add a servo as a jib trimmer: the jibs would adjust with the other sails, but could be trimmed in and out relative to those sails with the trimmer servo. Again and easy add and simple design. And what the heck - you like building and modifying as much as sailing anyway...

Brooks - funny that you mention the loose helm on the brig you sailed. Following the little brig in a kayak, I've seen it run straight as an arrow as I paddle to catch it. Not often we get nice steady breezes, but they are esaier to find when out in the kayak and near enough to see the sails.
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Old Sep 04, 2007, 04:37 PM
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Waiting for the rails to dry...

Not fair Dan...
Some of us are still waiting for the glue to dry....

No wonder it takes so long to build a vessel now... back in the old days you just pinned them together with dowels and sailed away... nowdays we have to wait for the glue to dry!

Jason
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Old Sep 04, 2007, 11:15 PM
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Great pictures!!!
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Old Sep 05, 2007, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL
HH -
Only one servo on the PdN? Philip almost always has a very good reason.
Dan...I agree with you that Philip must have a good reason for not adding another sheet control and I'm sure he has no such problems sailing the prototype. It's more than likely either the Capt. or an adjustment, or both. But whatever it is, she is not tacking and the sails seem to be fighting the rudder.

Just FYI...Prince has 3 servos, 1 for the rudder, 1 for the sheets to the 3 jibs, fore gaff, and driver and a 3rd one for the squares (like yours). I have only used the squares once and I think I could easily convert it to use for the driver and/or main gaff. If I need to remove the entire servo and use another winch and drum I don't know if it will fit...it is tight and partially under the deck. My other choice would be to remove the volt and amp meters and drop in another servo in their place. I really like the built in meters. It's nice to be able to just look at readings without having to drag along and hook up a meter. Plus I think a high torque servo is heavier than the meters and I don’t want to go back into the over weight problem again.

MILLERTIME…thanks!

PHILIP…you ever read this thread? HELP!

Capt. Slick

“Always choose the lesser of the two weevils!”
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Old Sep 05, 2007, 08:55 AM
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HH -
Ah, of course more than one servo...
If you want to add separate control for the jibs, and would like an idea or two, post a sketch or pic of the interior layout. Also post the model # of the current servos.
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Old Sep 05, 2007, 10:07 AM
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From an unbalanced/balanced rig perspective, putting the squares on the same servo as the jibs would be desirable. They are both sails located forward of the CLR, so slackening or tightening them would have similar effects on balance. Back when I was doing thought experiments for my Prince rig, I considered running the jib sheets off the yardarms; I don't remember if it became my preferred design or not. It seems that no matter how big the hull, you still need more room :-).
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Old Sep 05, 2007, 10:07 AM
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Here are the only pics I have of the servo set up. I will try to get some better ones tonight along with the new battery set up. I think I would want to keep the jibs on the current winch and move the driver and/or gaff sheets to another servo.

Would I want to move them both (driver and gaff)? Or do I just need one or the other on a separate servo and have the other be controlled with the jibs? Does that make sense?

Capt. Slick
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Old Sep 05, 2007, 12:29 PM
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Slick-Looks to me like a couple of small LED meters would free up space for a couple of servos. A problem of equipment expanding to fill the space available.
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Old Sep 05, 2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray C
Slick-Looks to me like a couple of small LED meters would free up space for a couple of servos. A problem of equipment expanding to fill the space available.
I never thought about LEDs. If I do nothing else I think I will try a smaller meter….something like on the radios would be perfect. But...before I make any major design changes to the ship…I would like to hear from Philip on the subject.

Gentlemen…weight is my enemy. If I add anything, I have to remove something else. I can’t remove any more ballast. Have you seen the way she heels? I know these pics are out of focus, but you can actually see the water on deck, running in the gun ports and over the bulwarks too. She rolls very realistically but it is getting a little hairy. I sure don’t want her sails in the water…

So...if I add a servo...I need to remove the meters or some other form of weight. Like I said, I don't use the squares and maybe I just need to try to use that servo...it's already in place.

Capt. Slick
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Old Sep 05, 2007, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooks
Back when I was doing thought experiments for my Prince rig,
Brooks...what's the story with your PDN kit? You have the first one sold (Hull number 2)...right? After all this time, I find it unbelievable that I still have the only kit on the water. According to SC&H website, Philip has sold 10 of the kits. Mine is hull number 4 or the 3rd one sold and it has been on the water since summer 2004. Have you started on yours?

Capt. Slick
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