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Old Jul 27, 2004, 11:36 PM
I'm goin' Falcon nuts
RCAV8R13's Avatar
White Salmon, Wa
Joined Oct 2003
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Top Secret: New brushless motor technology!

O.K. It's not so top secret, there is a website. This shows great promise. It is call "Parallel Path Magnetic Technology". It's quite new and a few prototypes have been made with rotory and linear motion. They claim 4 times the torque at 98% efficiency! I don't really have a grasp on it yet, but I'm getting there. Electronic engineering is not my strong point. I'm more of a aero and structural type. I find this stuff is really cool as I'm just embarcing on the build of my first CD Rom motor. The engineer at work who turned me on to this new technology says if I build the motor he will build the speed controller. The motor does not look that hard to design and build, so I think I will go for it. What the hell, maybe I will get a motor I can fly out of it. Four times the torque! YEE! HAA!
Here's the URL.
http://www.flynnresearch.net/
Click on "Magnetic technology"
RCAV8R13
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Old Jul 27, 2004, 11:57 PM
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If you consider the overall efficiency of the entire system...battery, wires, speed controller, gearbox, motor, prop, then you are looking at a total system efficiency of about 35% on a good day. If the motor goes from 80% efficient to 95% efficient it doesn't really move your overall efficiency that much. Maybe it goes from 35% to 38%, so perhaps you'd see flight times that are 10% longer at best using one of these motors.
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matttay
If you consider the overall efficiency of the entire system...battery, wires, speed controller, gearbox, motor, prop, then you are looking at a total system efficiency of about 35% on a good day. If the motor goes from 80% efficient to 95% efficient it doesn't really move your overall efficiency that much. Maybe it goes from 35% to 38%, so perhaps you'd see flight times that are 10% longer at best using one of these motors.
However, the motors would run MUCH cooler at hi power levels. If this is realy possible it would be a good thing

Larry
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 12:53 AM
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Maryland, USA
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What exactly is the claim? "4 times the torque" alone sounds meaningless to me. What is being compared? Can you even compare two types of motors? I looked at the website and the rotating motor looks like it is operating like a stepper motor. I wonder why we don't use stepper motors in our planes? I believe stepper motors have very high holding torque, too.

Just have to be skeptical.
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 01:10 AM
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I wonder if there technology could somehow be modified to be a 3 pole system so it could be used with conventional speed controls?
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 02:06 AM
vox
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Adelaide, Australia
Joined Jun 2004
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I'd be inclined to think that at this stage, we'd be hard pressed to find anything much better than the current cdrom motor and cheap ESC's (such as CC's). I just about fell off my chair when I saw the prices of these things and how relatively easy it is even for those who aren't electrical/electronics types.

Electronics can always be improved and I think there would be more benifits from providing more effort towards achieving high efficiency rather than new types of motors for cdroms.

Another good idea would be a cdrom motor and embedded ESC. ie cut out the extra wires and connectors and have a single brushless motor with inbuilt ESC for less than 20g. You could pitch this towards the indoor micro flyers quite succesfully methinks.
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 04:06 AM
The Rave.
Singapore Paya Lebar, Singapore
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I'm really stunned by the info on the webby. Why didn't anyone else think of that and put it up? If the efficiency of the motor is really as high as they claim it is, i won't be suprised. The concept is quite similar to Mazda's rotary engine design which is quiet and efficient....
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroHeli-Nut
The concept is quite similar to Mazda's rotary engine design which is quiet and efficient....
Umm.. my friend is getting 15mpg with his new RX-8. Thats not what i would call efficient
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 10:52 AM
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The website hasn't been update in quite a while. Either they ran out of funding or their site wasn't convincing enough to draw in "investors".

98% efficient motors are nothing new. It's not likely in the size we use. But this technology won't change that.

Greg
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 11:28 AM
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If you go all the way to the results page you will discover some things much to your chagrin. Basically as I thought the ferromagnetic material would saturate easily with the bias of the permanent magnets, this can't be avoided. As for applications in brushless technology gee there rotary thing there looks kind of like a stepper motor or variable reluctance motor, all common as dirt already. Really they only claim one patent number and more importantly a patent doesn't necessarily mean the idea works.

Cyb/Stephen
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 08:41 PM
vox
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Quote:
The concept is quite similar to Mazda's rotary engine design which is quiet and efficient....
I agree totally with TheLost. Mazda rotaries will suck down the juice quicker than you could say rotary. I have several friends with RX series cars and all I hear is "F#$! it uses so much fuel. More than a V8!" These guys are spending at least AU$100/week on fuel (and they can only run premium too).

They could be efficient at low rpm, but then they'd have no power which is mostly provided by high rpm.
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Old Jul 28, 2004, 11:35 PM
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Yeah.. they are not great on Fuel.. But those 'friends' are Keeping their Foot planted Firmly on the floor. and Odds are those are Turbo Rx7's.. normal ones don't need premium, normally..Winge all they want.. they are having serious Fun.. or they would have Sold their Cars off ..Right Quick :-)
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 06:42 PM
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Actually, if you read through the patent submission (doubt that anyone here read all 66 pages) you would see that even with saturation, or Bsat, the motor is still between three and four times as efficient as a normal electric motor. These devices are very similar in concept the MEG (motionless electromagnetic generator) and DO have efficiencies of higher than %100. Some of you will say its impossible to have %100 efficiency, but I assure you it is not. That is because we are measuring efficiency in terms of electrical input power, and not measuring efficiency from the amount of magnetic flux available. If you take the amount of magnetic flux available (here is where saturation comes into play) the motor design is only (approximately) 65-80% efficient.

The reason motors like this won't really work for the RC industry is size and weight. While they are more efficient at converting electrical power into kinetic power, they do so by adding materials to the motor design. What's more, is the materials they have added are dense magnets, and magnetic materials. So while the motor puts out more power per unit of electrical power, they weigh several times more than their conventional counterparts. Sorry park flyers....

Also, if you want to see someone actually producing this technology, go to www.japan.com/technology

A banker named Minato (sp? cant remember) is using similar technology to produce cooling fans for companies in Japan. Since he has already sold tens of thousands, I don't see how you can say that this technology doesnt have applications in the real world(japanese people don't pre order ANYTHING unless they are certain it will work). Although I am irked by Minato's claim that he himself discovered the technology (In 02 or 03, when Flynn submitted his patent in July of 98), especially since Minato is a banker with no type of engineering school under his belt.


Anyway, my two cents on the whole ordeal, I am planning to attempt to modify a kontronik motor with some hiperco and some ceramic magnets, I will let you guys know how it goes, but its a month away at least, if not more, as current budget constraints(damn wife) are limiting my research lately.
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 07:24 PM
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Budapest
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Unfortunately the perpetuum mobile is not discovered yet.
The 100+ % efficiency of the Minato motor is a stupid error in the measurement - they measured the electrical output power of a generator driven by the motor, and they forgot to measure cos (fi), simply counted with U*I.
Not a single 100+ % efficiency motor sold. If you think there is such a motor, please give a link to the shop, I like to be one of the the first guy using a perpetuum mobile... :-)
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Old Aug 02, 2004, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmormota
Unfortunately the perpetuum mobile is not discovered yet.
The 100+ % efficiency of the Minato motor is a stupid error in the measurement - they measured the electrical output power of a generator driven by the motor, and they forgot to measure cos (fi), simply counted with U*I.
Not a single 100+ % efficiency motor sold. If you think there is such a motor, please give a link to the shop, I like to be one of the the first guy using a perpetuum mobile... :-)
You're right, there is no %100 efficient motor. But I believe I already stated that we are wrong to measure the efficiency of a motor according to electrical input power instead of the magnetic flux available. By adding permanent magnets to the motor design, you are coupling the flux of those magnets with the flux of the coils. Hence, according to previous standards, a motor with greater than %100 efficiency -- but that system of measurement shouldn't be considered since we are primarily changing magnetic energy into kinetic energy, not electrical energy into kinetic energy.
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