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Old Jul 23, 2004, 12:01 PM
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Fl
Joined Apr 2003
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logo 14 motor questions???

I am close to deciding on the power setup for the logo 14...

i was originally going with the c50 12xl with 6s3p....

but now i am thinking of going c50 17xl with 8s3p running 600mm blades....

it looks like the running time on this setup gives an additional 6 minutes over the 12xl setup.. therfore i can now get 2 full 11 minute flights on one set of batteries....

also it looks like wiht the 17xl i can gear it from 1800 - 2050 depending on pinion gear selection...


whats everyones thoughts on this setup..??? is it overkill or too much for the machine ???

thanks

Larry
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Old Jul 24, 2004, 01:35 AM
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Hey Larry

I see everyone is up in the air with this question. I think when more guys get the Logo 14 going it will be more info. Right now I have 10 guys putting there kits together and only one other guy is going with the C50-17XL with 8S3P G2 8C to 10C packs and Logo 20 gearing. Most of the other guys are following Gary's call and going with the 5S4P and the C50-11XL. Not as aggressive as the 8S3P but still very good.

This is the power system using the 8S3P with the C50-17XL is similar to what the Logo 20 uses. It was best with G1 8S4P and the C50-18XL and 10T your head speed is around 1830. With the G2 cells that goes to 1840.

Now use the G2 with 8S3P with the 18XL and your back down to 1830 with the 17XL the head speed goes up to 1940. Seems a little high... But when you switch over to a Governor you drop 100 rpm or you can drop the center Number in your throttle curve and a few points to get the head to spin at 1900 rpm. Your at 1435 watts and high head speed, so that's sound like a 600mm blade for sure.
With a traditional 5S4P single pack TP is going with the G1 improved packs called High Density or just HD. The overall power is less than with this setup listed above, but more than enough power for everyone. Take a look at the Video on the web site under "Logo 14." Gary is not having a problem displaying the power available with this setup.

The 5S4P G1 HD with the C50-11XL and a 10T pinion turns the Head at 1830 rpm. Very nice and still with enough authority to be pleasant or aggressive when you want to. Stick a 11 T pinion and now the head jumps up to 2010 RPM. Tone it down a little and your right around 1950. Aggressive when you want too. Now I can't guarantee that your set-up will follow these Numbers exactly... To many variables, like actual KV of the motor can very, the hover point of your collective stick and so on. But it will get you close.

As more people finish up their 14's I will make sure the data posted on the web site reflects any changes if there is any. Gary already flew the 5S4P setup with the C50-11XL and gave it his blessing.

This setup uses 1200 to 1300 watts of power and should use 550mm or the 580mm blades. I am guessing you should decide what blades be your flying style. If you go with the higher 2000 RPM head speed go with the 580mm blades if you like the 1800 RPM head speed go with the 550mm blades.
The Mikado web site has the double stack Logo 10 gears posted on there web site. I do like the higher gear ration, I just don't like the way the gears are screwed together. A modification or spacer between the gear is in order before you go to this gear train. Be sure to order the longer pinion if you plane on going this way. It is going to lower your bog factor a little but other than that you wont see mush difference. The 6S3P set-up is pushing things a little... Check out the Power systems page and it has most of the important info you would need to make a decision on the motor selection.

BTW. we are now stocking 95% of all the parts for the Logo 14 already!

Robert
www.e-heli.com
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 04:08 AM
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First of all, I wouldn't bother with any -XL above a C50-15XL. The efficiency drops and they really run hot, no matter how efficient the setup is. On this, I will agree with Gary Wright. I do not agree, however, with his 5s4p/C50-11XL suggestion. It has a horrible rpm drop under load (288...), and the efficiency number drops to about 77%, which means it will run hot enough to fry an egg after a moderate flight.

Hackers, and other two-pole motors, need to run close to 40,000 rpm to get their maximum torque. If you can get them to run that high, the power difference is huge, and they run barely above body temperature. That's the reason we developed the "box". With the 2:1 "extra" reduction, you can use one of the more efficient winds, like the C50-15XL, and run it with a 14T pinion and on 10s2p. It's the same number cells as 5s4p but everything runs a heck of a lot cooler and the power difference is night and day. RPM drop under load goes from 288 down to an imperceptable 120. Durations would actually go up, not down.

Another very good combo with the box would be an 8s3p setup, a C50-12XL and a 14T pinion. Virtually the same rpm drop (122), and the efficiency number, even at 1300W, is an unbelievable 86%. It doesn't get much better than this! Average duration goes up by a couple of minutes, over the 10s2p setup.

For those not favoring a Hacker solution, there's also the Tangos, which may be one of the most efficient motors out there, IMO. They are smack in between the two-pole Hackers, that want to turn at 40,000, and the outrunners that max out at around 20,000. The Tangos hit their stride at 30,000 rpm. For the Logo 14, which shares the Logo 24's 138T main gear, you don't need a box to get a Tango to 30,000. A 45-08 with a 10T on 10s2p will do it. So will a 45-10, a 12T, and 8s3p, although a 45-09 and a 10T would be a better fit. The problem is that 45-09 is going to be hard to find (Tower Hobbies is now carrying 45-06s, 45-08s and 45-10s for $269...).

In any case, IMHO, there are plenty of solutions that are much better than -11XL and a 5s4p pack.

-- Gary
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 04:52 AM
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Gary,

Have you found all the different wind Tango motors to have similar efficiency numbers (assuming the setup is correct, i.e. 30k rpm)?
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 06:26 AM
A man with too many toys
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Where can I get more information on the Logo 14?

Who sells them?
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 08:35 AM
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Click on Robert's web site above.
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 11:12 AM
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Yes, they are all pretty much the same at 30,000 and they all pretty much match up to an 8-12s pack voltage in order to get close to that speed (45-10 on 8s, 45-09 on 9s, 45-08 on 10s, 45-07 on 11s and 45-06 on 12s...). Since 12s isn't really practical at this point, and since it appears that Tower is only going to carry the -06, the -08 and the -10, it looks like the real practical choice is going to be limited to the -08 on 10s or the -10 on 8s.

-- Gary
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 11:19 AM
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Fl
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gary,

what would be the preference... the hacker on the box or the tangos on hv ???
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 11:40 AM
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Very close, but I'd have to give the edge to the box/-15XL combo because although it weighs more, you have enough "room" in pinion selections to dial it in perfectly. I have the 45-08 in my Logo 10, with a 10s2p-4200 setup and a 10T pinion (which is the smallest...), and the h/s is a bit high at 100% so we dial down the governor a bit, to get it to about 2070. The 45-10 setup, with 8s3p, would need a further reduction.

A way to save some weight would be to use a B50-14XL in place of a C50-15XL, but this thing will have so much power that if 580 blades are used, the extra weight of the C50 shouldn't matter. The C50s look way cooler, IMO!

-- Gary
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 05:57 PM
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Hey guys.
The Box is the way to go for all around, best performance. The gear reductions is a boost for this heli and most of the others too. I have "the box" coming in for sale soon. I plan to run one of them in the Logo 14 because the numbers look incredible. Yes, that good!

I am hoping for a semless "bolt on" fit -- but time will tell. The good part; the Logo 14 already comes with a very stiff and well designed carbon frames. The head and tail parts come from a Logo 20. The tail boom has been shortened from stock Logo 20 length of 690 mm to 650 mm. The Tail blades are the stock Logo 20. It is possible to change out the stock tail boom, push rod and belt for logo 20 parts if you want to run the 600 blades.

You can easily stack two 5S2P packs or two 3S4P Thunder Power packs on top of each other without a problem. So, they can be 5S in the front to back direction and as high as 8P using two packs -- that's allot of room for packs. Tanic 2500 cells are just a little to wide and a little to tall to fit in the LOgo 14 chassis.

There are battery rings already available for 6S to 8S size of packs. Most of the upgrades that you needed to purchase for the other Logo kits now come stock in this kit like the Hex bolts, Clamp ring , gyro mount and more. The Logo 14 still has upgrade parts -- but they are really up grades. Like Aluminum motor plate, Servo frames that are already drilled for your servos, Tail Rotor hub with Thrust bearings, a carbon tail rotor and a few other aluminum cut parts to replace some of the plastic ones that come in the kit.
I will post the Logo 14 with "The Box" comparisons on the web site as soon as I verify it has been intergraded on to the Logo 14. So far what Gary has mentioned --it should be no problem.

Robert
e-heli.com
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 06:13 PM
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Anyone know what a Logo 14 weighs? How much weight will a Logo 20 boom/belt/etc. add?
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Old Jul 27, 2004, 04:57 AM
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My Logo 10 with CF frames, the 138T/10T gearing, the "big" L14/20/24 head, the L20 boom/belt, 600 blades and 10s2p-4200s, weighs 6-1/2 pounds. I'm guessing the L14 will be similar.

-- Gary
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Old Aug 09, 2004, 02:19 PM
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Any new updates?
Is any one using "The Box" yet with the logo 14?
I am almost finished building mine, and I was holding off on ordering the motor, I am real curious about the box.
Thanks
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Old Aug 09, 2004, 02:47 PM
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Yes, yesterday we flew the pre-prod. box, a C50-15XL, a 10s2p-4200 setup and 600 blades. With the exception of the longer blades, this is almost identical to a Logo 14 setup. The L14 will weigh a couple ounces more, but the production box will be about the same lighter. The AUW was 7 pounds, 5 ounces, vs 6 pounds 9 ounces for the non-box Tango setup with the same packs. I was expecting that the performance would "feel" a bit sluggish, compared to the Tango, at best, about the same. What surprised us was that it was a whole lot stronger! Enough that I could tell while I was video'ing it. The FDR numbers verify the higher power levels, as well. With the Tango, we would see peaks in the 1800W range. To get roughly equal power with the added weight, I was expecting to see about 100W more, or around 1900W peaks. Instead, we were getting 2100W peaks! Peak currents were in the 68-70A range, which is in the 15C+ area.

I'm editing the video now, which will have the FDR info superimposed over it, at the bottom. I'll post a link later this afternoon, after it finishes rendering.

-- Gary
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Old Aug 09, 2004, 03:08 PM
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Thanks for the reply Gary. Do you think that the C50-15XL, a 10s2p-4200 setup and 600 blades, is the way to go? Currently I am just doing loops, flips and starting inverted hovering, but I want something that will take me into more advanced aerobatics.

thanks
Hovernut
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