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Old Jul 07, 2004, 10:10 PM
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redietz's Avatar
Frederick, Maryland, United States
Joined May 2004
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Question
Dumb questions about first full house plane

I just acquired my first full house ship - a Laser 2MC. I've hand tossed it and I'm psyched!

Before I put it up off a high start (which I'll do before I winch it), I'd like some advice. Although I've flown planes with ailerons before, they've always been either no rudder or I've set them up CAR. Now that I have an independent rudder, do I control the launch with rudder or ailerons?

Also, since I bought the plane used, I was surprised when I hooked the flaps up to a Y-harness, they worked in opposite directions. I didn't want to take
a servo out of the wing and flip it over, so I plugged one of the flap servos into the throttle channel and one into the flap channel. I then mixed the throttle and flap channels, with the throttle as the master. Although it does what I want it to, is this a normal way of doing things? My radio (at least as
far as I can figure out) only allows mixing two channels, so I've precluded myself from mixing elevator into the flap. Any suggestions?

Bob
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Old Jul 07, 2004, 10:23 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
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Mixing - It would be helpful if we knew what radio you have

Will your radio not do an aileron/rudder mix?

Taking a flap servo out and flipping it over is not such a big deal. Flip the servo and reset the horn. I did it on mine when I didn't have the ability to put each flap on a separate channel so I Y'd them.

Give us more info on the radio.
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Old Jul 07, 2004, 10:39 PM
Think Thermals!!!!
SoCalGliderFlyr's Avatar
Costa Mesa, California
Joined Mar 2004
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Yeap. Need radio make/model. In the mean time you will want a good amount of rudder over ailerons for launch. After it is off the line you don't need more than it takes to over come the aileron drag. Even with more up aileron than down there is still a bit of rudder needed to get the plane to come around.

I've got flaps (flaperon) and the rudder mixed into the ailerons. I can switch these mixes off if I want to. Futaba 8UAF with the three possion switch moved to the top left.
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Old Jul 07, 2004, 10:52 PM
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redietz's Avatar
Frederick, Maryland, United States
Joined May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr
Mixing - It would be helpful if we knew what radio you have

Will your radio not do an aileron/rudder mix?

Taking a flap servo out and flipping it over is not such a big deal. Flip the servo and reset the horn. I did it on mine when I didn't have the ability to put each flap on a separate channel so I Y'd them.

Give us more info on the radio.
I've a Futaba 6EXA. Looking through the programming instructions carefully,
I found that I was right. It will only allow one arbitrary mix per model.

I didn't particular want to do an aileron/rudder mix; I'd like to learn to use them independently.

What I was most concerned about is not being able to mix flaps and elevator if I need to keep the flaps on two channels.

I suppose I could just flip the servo over. I hate to cut into the covering, though.

Bob
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Old Jul 07, 2004, 10:59 PM
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OK, didn't know you had to cut the covering.

You can buy a device, about $20 that will reverse a servo. Goes inline with the connection to the receiver. Replaces the Y cable

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...er&FVPROFIL=++

Use this and you can do your flap/elevator mix
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Old Jul 07, 2004, 11:10 PM
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redietz's Avatar
Frederick, Maryland, United States
Joined May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr
OK, didn't know you had to cut the covering.

You can buy a device, about $20 that will reverse a servo. Goes inline with the connection to the receiver. Replaces the Y cable

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...er&FVPROFIL=++

Use this and you can do your flap/elevator mix
Thanks. I didn't know such a thing existed.

Should I move the control for the flaps back to the flap knob, or leave it on the throttle stick?

Bob
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 01:41 AM
Think Thermals!!!!
SoCalGliderFlyr's Avatar
Costa Mesa, California
Joined Mar 2004
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Sailplane flaps and spoilers should be on the left stick. Flaps up with the stick up. Spoilers closed with the stick up. With the 8UAF you can program in a bit of a dead area so you don't move the surfaces if you just happen to bump the stick.

Flaps should be mixed in with the elevator to dampen out the "zoom" effect from lowering them.
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 03:57 AM
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You can have the flaps wherever you like. If you fly flaps on sailplanes AND on power planes, I would suggest you put the flaps on the knob to be consistant. Most sailplane pilots do put flaps or spoilers on the "throttle" stick. It is just more convenient to use there.

As noted above the standard is that when the stick is all the way forward, that is your "go" position. So flaps would be up, or if you had spoiilers, they would be down. Back is your stop position, so flaps would go down.

Again, if you fly both and have flaps on both, you might want to put the flaps on the knob to be consistant. Completely up to you. No one can tell you how you are most comfortable.
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redietz
. Now that I have an independent rudder, do I control the launch with rudder or ailerons?
If your plane has a stable launch, using the rudder to guide it up vice the ailerons is preferred (IMHO). Everytime you move the aileron, you change the airfoil to one less efficient that with them in neutral. Leaving them centered and using the rudder will prevent this.

Obviously if your plane is moving rapidly to one side or the other, using the ailerons to get it back on track may be required.

The few times I have flown a full house 2M plane off a high start, it seemed to me the use of flaps (or actually cambering the TE of the wing) had no effect or even possibly a negative effect on the launch. I do, however, always use a cambered TE (both ailerons and flaps) during a winch launch.

Good luck,
Dave
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 10:12 AM
Think Thermals!!!!
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Costa Mesa, California
Joined Mar 2004
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Too much trailing edge camber is detrimental. Takes about 1/16" to 3/32" on a nine or ten inch cord to give it a bit of a help. Then this also depends on the air foil. Some will work better than others with TE camber. The 7035 on the Mako I fly loves TE camber -- both the flaps and the ailerons -- for hard hi-start and winch lauches. With the TE camber and the very rearward balance point it thermals like an Oly/Mirage/Paragon. Coupled rudder does help but I do over ride the rudder now an then.
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 11:16 AM
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Bernie Wolfard's Avatar
Olathe, KS (next to the Castle)
Joined Jun 2001
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Bob,

The reality is you donít have enough radio for a full house glider. The purpose of all of the flippers on the wing is to be able to fine tune camber as well as running crow for landing. Without the ability to set a launch mode on a switch, some way to adjust camber and a way to mix a landing mode there is really no advantage to having a full house sailplane. To mix flaps without elevator compensation is a good way to set up a crash. Even if you can compensate the elevator with your right thumb sooner or later you set a stall on landing and possibly hurt your airplane. Without the mixing capabilities you are better off with a 4-channel ship. I know you donít want to hear this but there is a reason why full house gliders with camber sensitive airfoils started to become popular with the advent of multi channel computer radios.

I set up a full house airplane on a Hitec flash 5 radio that wasnít really capable of the mixes needed for a full house ship but it was cumbersome and too much pilot load to make it work well.
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flutterbug
Bob,

The reality is you donít have enough radio for a full house glider.

I set up a full house airplane on a Hitec flash 5 radio that wasnít really capable of the mixes needed for a full house ship but it was cumbersome and too much pilot load to make it work well.
OK, some reality.

1) I am of the opinion that you can fly any plane on a 4 channel radio, so you can definately fly that plane with that radio.

2) You won't be able to take advantage of the fact that you have a 6 servo plane today, but that doesn't mean you can't fly it and I don't think Flutterbug was suggesting that you could not fly it.

3) Since you only have one user defined mix, make that the flap/elevator combo. That is your priority mix, in my opinion. I believe that is what Flutterbug suggested as well.


So, here is how I see you setting up the plane using a Futaba 6EXA
http://www.futaba-rc.com/radios/futk55.html

Channel 1 - Both Ailerons (you may have to reverse one with a reverser or by moving a servo

Ch 2 - Elevator

Ch3 - unused

Ch4 - Rudder

Ch5 unused

Ch6 - Flaps ( you may have to reverse one, as we discussed above)

Now set up the user mix so that you get some elevator action, probably down elevator, as you apply the flaps. I can't say how much you need, but start with about 5% and gradually add more through testing until the plane comes in fairly level. If you have a friend who knows sailplanes, or if you have the instruciton book for that plane, that would be a big help.

Flutterbug, would you agree with this approach?

Whether you put the flaps on the stick or the lever/knob is up to you, if your radio will allow you that flexability. I prefer them on the stick, but I am more of a sailplane guy then a power plane guy. I fly parkflyers and slow fly electrics in addition to my sailplanes, though I do plan to dabble in electic 3D.

Now, the good news is that if you ever decide you want to put an electic motor or a power pod on that plane, channel 3 is open for proportional speed control, or you could put it on CH 5 for on/off operation which is all you really need as you climb out, then you switch off.

When you have the money, if you are going to get more involved in sailplanes, or want to fully utilize the capabilities of that one, consider a radio upgrade. If you think of it, you will probably need two reversers, so that is about $40 toward a new radio and you won't need any reversers. Add $110 and you are into a much more capable radio that can handle that plane.

Here are some suggestions.

Moderate $$ upgrade - Futaba 7C - about $150 just for the radio
a big upgrade in features from what you have now
http://www.futaba-rc.com/radios/futj69.html
http://www.servocity.com/html/7ca_transmitter.html

More $$, more capable upgrade Futaba 9C - About $290 just for the radio
I just purchased this one - I got the H version which is better for sailplane focused guys.
http://www.futaba-rc.com/radios/futj85.html
http://www.servocity.com/html/9ca_systems.html

There are more capable and more expensive radios to consider for the future, but these would be significant upgrades from what you have now. They can handle a full house plane, but the 9C can a lot more.

They will work with your current receivers and will be compatible with your current radio. You could buddy them together to help a friend learn to fly.

If you got a 7C you would have 16 model memories between the two. The 9C is unlimited in model memories.

Go set up your plane. Do a lot of testing before you go for a full launch to make sure everything is right. Again, if you have someone available for help, ask for that help.

Go fly your plane! Let us know how it goes.
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 11:57 AM
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United States, AL, Madison
Joined May 2002
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Bob,

Go for it. You're right. If you can only have one mix. Flap -> Elevator is what you want. The others you can live without, but your plane could fly much more efficient with a higher end TX. For example without aileron -> rudder mix, the fuse will often be pointed out away from the turn (adverse yaw).

Flutterbug's advice is solid. A higher end TX allows the plane a wider range of efficiencies and reduces the pilot workload. It can be done, but it's a lot of work.

There used to be a guy in my club who flew full-house planes with a fairly low end radio. I know he had no flap-> elevator mix. He did it by hand. Pull flaps and push down big time on the elevator. Believe it or not, he was one of the best spot landers in the club. I saw him do a loop starting at below 50' of altidude about 2 seconds before landing the plane right on the landing spot. All with his "lower end" radio.

IMHO, use a winch for your first launches. If something goes wrong, you can stop pedalling. Not so with a hi-start. If you're not used to a winch, get a friend to pedal the plane up the line.

With your existing radio, you will use rudder for launch, landing, and thermal turns. You will likely want mechanical aileron differential, if not supplied by your TX.

Jon
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 12:00 PM
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Deland, FL
Joined Jun 2002
714 Posts
I even went as far as to look up the 6exa manual on-line. It definitely doesn't have the functions that make a full house glider work well. You can still use it with some limits while you save up for a better transmitter.

You would have to set up the ailerons as flaperons or use a y-harness. You might as well use a y-harness because it appears that you can't program aileron differential into the radio. You will need to set it up thru the servo linkages if using a y-harness.

Then you can either use the servo reversing gadget, or reverse the servo rotation by doing a little creative soldering. You would have to open the servo to do that, but then you wouldn't need the gadget.

You put the flaps on you throttle channel and use the p-mix to mix throttle channel to elevator to balance whatever pitching comes with the flap deployment.

This will allow you to use a little flap on launch, and a lot on landing. Otherwise, your camber will be fixed. You can still soar, just not with the advantages your plane can give.

While you are doing that save up for a 9C radio, or an 8U-super if you really can't afford the 9C. There are places that sell only the Tx, BTW. I use the 9C for multiple sailplanes and there is nothing more that I wish for. There are guys who swear that JR is much better for sailplane flying, but I don't know what could be better. I'm not knocking them, I just recognize that you are already set up for Futaba, and the new TX would be a significant upgrade.

I looked at the new Futaba 7C Tx, and it's not a good sailplane radio either, btw. Go for 8U or 9c.
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Old Jul 08, 2004, 12:05 PM
dare to be dull
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Deland, FL
Joined Jun 2002
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oh, yeah - don't mix ailerons & rudder either, especially with only one mix available. It's just bad for soaring anyway. With a plane like a Laser, if you are thermalling correctly, you will be holding rudder into the turn and aileron against the turn. Kind of defeat the purpose for a ail-rud mix, doesn't it? Flat wing sailplanes have a habit of banking into the turn, because the outboard wing is moving so much faster it makes more lift. You need to counter that with aileron while keeping the turn tight with rudder. Be gentle on both though.
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