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Old Jul 09, 2004, 03:00 PM
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That Vid is awesome... the rolls and loop were very nice ... Are you using just aileron/elev +throttle??? for controlls
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Old Jul 09, 2004, 03:16 PM
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Very nice.
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Old Jul 10, 2004, 12:36 AM
Mad Max meets the Thinker
Cyberman's Avatar
Pittsburgh, PA
Joined Apr 2004
569 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stacker
Stepen, are the 15mm units available without searching through a couple dozen old drives? I was wondering if you could get the same thrust at a little less amp. draw with a little less fan blockage, the 15mm would also work well inthe edf30 "If it ever comes out"

Cheers -- Stacker
Find SONY mini disc players they have them in them. A few people have 'messed' with them so look at the CDROM threads in the power systems area. Plenty of discusion.

Lance I know you like to wittle wood, but you should try to round out your modeling experience (grin). Some people I admit have gone CD-ROM motor crazy making them. Personally myself I would rather fiddle with the wires, I'm not very patient with wood. Exact oposites

I hope you can get some clearer videos off your micro F-16 moving about, it was mostly a dark shadow! I did notice the houses in the background so that clued me in about the neighbor thinking of it as an airshow plane.

Cyb/Stpehen
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Old Jul 10, 2004, 11:49 PM
Mad Max meets the Thinker
Cyberman's Avatar
Pittsburgh, PA
Joined Apr 2004
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Lance I sat down and looked at the EDF40.. I can see where you might be loosing power (IE wasting what you have). If you have been following these threads New EDF Takes Shape, and Test the WM600, you can get an idea what the problem I'm talking about is with the EDF40, it doesn't correct the rotation of the air caused by the spinning fan from what I've observed of the photos. Adding In going Vanes or Out going vanes should correct this and convert more of the motors energy into moving the plane instead of swirling air. Even if it only gave you a 2% boost that will make a difference in how the plane flies, I would guess it's more like 5% or better (which is significant). IGV is more efficient acording to studies, so a few bits of balsa in the right place and some sanding might give you more thrust without radical surgery. If you've done so already ignore this You can detect swirl in the exhaust with a device like winmodels used ( a bearing mounted shaft with straight vanes on it). If the device spins then you are wasting power because of the the swirl.

Cyb/Stephen
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Last edited by Cyberman; Jul 10, 2004 at 11:55 PM. Reason: Cleaning it up of course
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Old Jul 16, 2004, 02:44 PM
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Salt Lake City Utah
Joined Mar 2004
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Lance, any luck with the Firefly in your little F-16

Stacker
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Old Jul 16, 2004, 05:06 PM
I want to fly everything!
Lance Nordby's Avatar
Hillsboro, OR, USA
Joined Mar 2004
954 Posts
Hey Stacker,

I ordered the motor last week Tuesday. I just called and they said it shipped yesterday because I needed one without the pinion gear.

I uploaded two videos to the gallery. When I get the Firefly in I will try to get a better quality video to post.

Lance
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Old Jul 16, 2004, 05:37 PM
Crazy but Loveable
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Lincoln Municipal, Nebraska, United States
Joined May 2004
427 Posts
I'm starting to get ideas for the Guillows static F-15 kit that's been in my basement for two years waiting for me to build it.
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Old Jul 16, 2004, 05:41 PM
I want to fly everything!
Lance Nordby's Avatar
Hillsboro, OR, USA
Joined Mar 2004
954 Posts
Ok guys,

I was out of town on vacation. I didn't see all the responses and questions on page two.

The launcher is something I whipped up. It works a lot better than trying to throw the plane although it can be hand launched with difficulty. I'll post some pics of it next week.

Now that I have the videos in the gallery I'm gonna call the guy at the hobby shop and tell him to check it out.

Cyberman, I dropped out of Electrical Engineering school and it left me scarred. I just want guys like you to do the work and I'll buy it. Nonetheless, I'll consider tinkering with motor winding if I must.

I will investigate the spiral flow issues though. I like that kind of stuff.

Micro F-16. I like that!
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Old Jul 16, 2004, 05:43 PM
I want to fly everything!
Lance Nordby's Avatar
Hillsboro, OR, USA
Joined Mar 2004
954 Posts
Oops. One more thing. Ssyed, it has ailerons and elevator. I considered stabilators but went this way. If I did it again I think the stablilators would be simpler and lighter. Anyone have any opinions one way or the other?
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Old Jul 16, 2004, 05:48 PM
I want to fly everything!
Lance Nordby's Avatar
Hillsboro, OR, USA
Joined Mar 2004
954 Posts
Flyboy2610: Do it! Two EDF-30's, yeah that ought to work.

Don't they make an F-14 too? The swing wings would be a fun challenge.
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Old Jul 17, 2004, 10:56 AM
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Nashville, Tennesse, United States
Joined Mar 2004
195 Posts
esb-help has built all three of these though they are pusher prop, if you do a search for his posts on the subject you'll see some great planes I think he is trying to work out the swing-wing. I can't wait to try this myself. Lance, you said you were using the 40mm(?) would the 50mm or 60mm be a better place for me to start? I guess we'll find out w/ your new motor. Very excited to follow your progress.
Andrew
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Old Jul 17, 2004, 11:44 AM
Mad Max meets the Thinker
Cyberman's Avatar
Pittsburgh, PA
Joined Apr 2004
569 Posts
F16A and Guillows Kit (et al)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
Cyberman, I dropped out of Electrical Engineering school and it left me scarred. I just want guys like you to do the work and I'll buy it. Nonetheless, I'll consider tinkering with motor winding if I must.
Ahhh my father 'hates that electrical' stuff as well. I told him "you use it every day it's not difficult you just have psycological imepence not problems with eletronics". He laughed (thank goodness), my Uncle was the geneous EE so everyone expected him to be that, I guess that made a mess.

Back to the motors though, they rotate, and have some nifty mechanical work in them actually. Most if not all your work is mechanically inclined. If you want to buy a unit well that's fine with me. I just enjoy putting something together like that and it running . I think conversion motors or something makes a converted EDF40 (with rewound brushless built in), might look into that if you don't want to wind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
I will investigate the spiral flow issues though. I like that kind of stuff.
This is what winmodels used to check for rotation in the air exiting the plane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
Flyboy2610: Do it! Two EDF-30's, yeah that ought to work.
I didn't think GWS had the EDF-30's available yet, do they?
The F-15 has a bigger wing span so that will help, more room to work with. One thing I was considering for the EDF-30's for running them on rewound CD-ROM motors was moving the motors out of the air flow and relocating them somewhere else in the plane, and having a long drive shaft to the fan. It's not exactly the best mechanically, but if you can get the motors out of the air flow I think that will give a performance improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
Don't they make an F-14 too? The swing wings would be a fun challenge.
Yes they do the wing turns on it even. however it's a display model, thus one would have to modify it so that it can handle the force of swinging, instead of breaking off

Now I went out and obtained this kit for myself, it's pretty nice all things considered, ( I paid < 1/2 list price for it ). Lance how did you do with duct work in this thing? (dimensionally) I think I'll form it from 3 mil mylar film and shrink it on a form? I'm thinking of vacuforming it with mylar file actually (it doesn't have to look pretty just has to be nicely shaped) or using calusexpf technique of plastic containers and wooden forms with a heat gun.

From the photo's I assume you didn't use the given intake and nozzle (otherwise it would look more scaleish)? It looks like you used a piece of card stock to have it look like the F16's intake. By appearances you have a 'straight' extension for the nozzle (so it's wide open leaving more volume to flow through). I think I'll make it so I can use either intake scheme (theres or yours) for testing, it will improve things a fair bit if intake lip is more rounded as that edge seems to be important in maintaining duct efficiency. I'll look to see if the FSA is maintained throughout the plane. I assume you cut the bottom of F1, an modified F5 through F10 for the intake and planked it with 1/32 balsa?

Being wittling challenged, I think I'll just make 'new' F Series formers to fit the shape of what the duct needs to be an FSA of 1100 mm^2 all the way through (11cm^2?). I'll probably stuff a cone on the end of the GWS fan to the 'nozzle' so it maintains the FSA as well. Acording to my calculations the nozzle should be 37.5 mm (1.5") in diameter (to keep the FSA constant). Anyhow with such a long duct one can loose a lot of power in just these areas. How far back did you place the fan by the way?

Cyb/Stephen
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Last edited by Cyberman; Jul 17, 2004 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Needed A title
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Old Jul 19, 2004, 03:28 PM
I want to fly everything!
Lance Nordby's Avatar
Hillsboro, OR, USA
Joined Mar 2004
954 Posts
Whoa Cyberman,

You are asking a lot of pointed questions. Its been a while since I built this thing. I already started on two other projects. I'll have to dig out the box and refresh my memory on how it was done. Maybe I can pull off the motor cover tonight and get some photos of the ducting.

Basically though, the internal ducting is formed from balsa. I kept the center keel intact except for a scallop ahead of the motor. This may well be a bad idea but I needed support for the bottom of the fuselage. The balsa was wetted and kind of taped and clamped into place to dry to shape. It worked fairly well but it was fiddly. I think your assumptions about the former mods are essentially correct. I don't have the plane here, I'll check it out tonight.

I used a lot of TLAR (that looks about right) during the construction. I tried to keep the cross sectional area constant up to the fan. I don't have any idea how successful I was. I have access to Solidworks CAD program at work. It would be fun to model this thing in it and see how the ducting checks out. I could even do a CFD analysis on it.

I lost the original inlet on one of the test flight attempts (crashes?) and didn't notice until I had lost track of the landing spot. I made one out of some unknown thin plastic and covered it with stickyback Monokote. It is a little more open and probably works better.

The tail cone tapers a little to achieve a cross section reduction to 90% or at least my best guesstimate. I read somewhere that this is a good rule of thumb. There is also a long tapered tail cone attached to the engine. I also removed the insulation from the motor wires and wrapped the bare wires with tape to create a thin, streamlined shape out of them.

The entire top surface of the plane was sheeted with 1/32 balsa. I used the kit's ribs so the airfoil section probably leaves a lot to be desired. I made patterns for all the ducting and sheeting pieces in case I want to make another F-16 or make repairs.

Your shaft drive to the fans is an interesting idea. It could really increase flow. I wonder if you would have trouble cooling the motors though. Maybe you could drive both fans with one motor.

I assumed the EDF-30 was available because they advertise it. I dunno.

I really need to do some playing around with the inlet and exhausts. I also think my fan could stand to be balanced. Are there any good posted methods for doing this?

I will try to get some detailed photos up. My camera I have at this time is pretty old so I don't know much success I'll have.

Higher: Here's my scientific method used to research and develop this aircraft: I bought the EDF-40 one day on a whim. A half a year later I spotted the F-16 kit and thought HMMMM, that EDF-40 seemed about the right size for this thing. So I bought the kit. It turned out that the 40 is just right. I'm not sure if a bigger fan would fit. I haven't a larger fan so I don't know if it would fit, but maybe.

I better go, I gotta make it look I'm actually doing something here at work.

Oh, yeah here's some pics of the launch gun too.

L.
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 12:38 AM
Big gov never Works
St. Martin's Avatar
Skunk Water, Rhode Island
Joined Jul 2002
12,315 Posts
200% guillows

Hi lance, I just now discovered your thread. I built the Guillows F-16 twice. Both enlarged 200%. My first was before my "E" days and had a K.K. TD.09 in the nose. Fully sheeted, very fast. Retired in a good home.

My recent was originally intended for the Hi-line shroud using a Cut KY rotor and /3 mega and 10-He cells. The airframe was not fully insert planked and AUW was 20 oz.
Just not enough oomph from the Hi-line combo. I plan on trying the Wattage W/KY rotor And Li-pos. But for the moment It flys with a /5 pusher.

I believe you may be the first to actually fly a guillows jet using edf. My hat's off to you.

Steve
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Old Jul 20, 2004, 02:29 AM
Mad Max meets the Thinker
Cyberman's Avatar
Pittsburgh, PA
Joined Apr 2004
569 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
Whoa Cyberman,

You are asking a lot of pointed questions. Its been a while since I built this thing. I already started on two other projects. I'll have to dig out the box and refresh my memory on how it was done. Maybe I can pull off the motor cover tonight and get some photos of the ducting.
Sounds like surgery.. it would be nice to have a look, what I'm doing at the moment is creating new templates to keep the FSA correct throughout the ducted section. For example F10 is way too small so I am going to increase it so that the taper is right to 90% to the section that's is adhered to it., it means I need to make a new nozzle though. The intake included is roughtly between 60% and 70% of the FSA (argh) on the F16 model so I'm contemplating how to handle the F5 former and the intake now. Your current set up looks to be between 90 and 99% FSA which is just about right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
Basically though, the internal ducting is formed from balsa. I kept the center keel intact except for a scallop ahead of the motor. This may well be a bad idea but I needed support for the bottom of the fuselage. The balsa was wetted and kind of taped and clamped into place to dry to shape. It worked fairly well but it was fiddly. I think your assumptions about the former mods are essentially correct. I don't have the plane here, I'll check it out tonight.
Hmmm lots of 1/32" balsa carefully sanded sounds like. If I can use mylar for this work I'll be happy. I was contemplating which way to 'split' the vacume forming mold in the vertical or horizont plane on this. Though because of the intake shape my guess is vertical will win. I wish I were clever enough to think of some ultra micro retracts for this.

that's great, I know it's probably asking a lot just don't break anything

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
I used a lot of TLAR (that looks about right) during the construction. I tried to keep the cross sectional area constant up to the fan. I don't have any idea how successful I was. I have access to Solidworks CAD program at work. It would be fun to model this thing in it and see how the ducting checks out. I could even do a CFD analysis on it.

I lost the original inlet on one of the test flight attempts (crashes?) and didn't notice until I had lost track of the landing spot. I made one out of some unknown thin plastic and covered it with stickyback Monokote. It is a little more open and probably works better.
A wee bit of hand eye appoximation, gotcha, I thought you might have attacked there template sheet with a pencil and tracing paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
The tail cone tapers a little to achieve a cross section reduction to 90% or at least my best guesstimate. I read somewhere that this is a good rule of thumb. There is also a long tapered tail cone attached to the engine. I also removed the insulation from the motor wires and wrapped the bare wires with tape to create a thin, streamlined shape out of them.
[QUOTE=Lance Nordby]The entire top surface of the plane was sheeted with 1/32 balsa. I used the kit's ribs so the airfoil section probably leaves a lot to be desired. I made patterns for all the ducting and sheeting pieces in case I want to make another F-16 or make repairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
Your shaft drive to the fans is an interesting idea. It could really increase flow. I wonder if you would have trouble cooling the motors though. Maybe you could drive both fans with one motor.
Yes to the former, that's one reason why I'm mostly 'thinking' about it. 3mm CF rod from front to the back where the fan is, then you can play with your ducting without wires interfering.

For driving two fans from one motor I you could do that, it would need a bearing for each end of each shaft, and some really good high speed nylon or delron gears. Might be an interesting experiment, you will loose approximately 10% to 25% of your power that way. So 25W per fan would require 56W to 67W to the motor. It's best to have as small a gear ratio between the motor and drive shafts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
I assumed the EDF-30 was available because they advertise it. I dunno.
Ahh well, it's says TBA on there site and I've not seen it for sale anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
I really need to do some playing around with the inlet and exhausts. I also think my fan could stand to be balanced. Are there any good posted methods for doing this?
What I've heard people discuse is mountint the rotor on a motor spin it up and use a fine abrasive sheet on the edge of the fan as it spins. I would guess they didn't run the motor up real high to do this and apply extremely light pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Nordby
Higher: Here's my scientific method used to research and develop this aircraft: I bought the EDF-40 one day on a whim. A half a year later I spotted the F-16 kit and thought HMMMM, that EDF-40 seemed about the right size for this thing. So I bought the kit. It turned out that the 40 is just right. I'm not sure if a bigger fan would fit. I haven't a larger fan so I don't know if it would fit, but maybe.

I better go, I gotta make it look I'm actually doing something here at work.
Ahhh... you just did it and it work kind of thing
I can't argue with that logic though

You should work at work, and play some at home!

Cyb/Stephen
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