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Old Jun 12, 2004, 08:18 AM
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Near Austin
Joined Dec 2001
5,369 Posts
Government Regulation - Time to Organize!

It appears as though the government is about to protect us from ourselves again. The "You Need To Know" thread prompts me to start this one to commence the organization of our motley little group into something a bit more cohesive so that we may present our case more appropriately.

Granted, there are many of you here that do not intend to use aerial photography as a living. But if someone offered you money to take pictures of their house and you accept, then you have just joined this robbers lot! We need to gather and compile information concerning our pasttime/profession into a single source of information. I intend to establish a web site to do exactly that.

To that end, I would like to request that anyone who has gathered information about insurance, legality, or application in reference to our hobby, to please send me that info. I will compile it and publish the web page.

Specific professional areas could be of great help in this effort. Such as:

1. Legal (Duh!) If any of you out there are in the legal profession, your expertise would be a welcome addition.
2. Actuarial (insurance) This is a hot topic and most carriers wont even touch us!
3. Municipal government: (applications)
4. Other federal agencies (Fisheries, Parks & Wildlife, etc.)

I believe that low altitude aerial photography is a growing industry. I have dedicated the last three years to building AP platforms. I do NOT wish to have my new found profession regulated away.

Gene
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 01:18 PM
Registered User
Apex, N.C.
Joined Dec 2003
65 Posts
Some of the helicam guys over on RunRyder are doing something similar. Their main concern is insurance, but I would imagine FAA issues would hit them in a similar way as the folks here.

Here's the thread:
http://runryder.com/helicopter/t111194p1/
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 02:08 PM
I can TOO fly!
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Southern Colorado
Joined Feb 2004
246 Posts
Too many bureaucrats with too much time and too little to do.
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 02:18 PM
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United States, IA, Onawa
Joined Nov 2003
1,439 Posts
I agree Gene, we all need to start writing some emails.
I think you see the bigger picture. If that document is enforceable law, we just lost the majority of our R/C rights and flying sites, for profit or not.
Everyone take a good look at the document, and the “NOTE” that excludes a non-profit R/C plane.
NOTICE N 8700.25


If it’s enforceable, and remember “someone is” trying to restrict Kevin for flying for profit using the definition in the same “note”.
You can now only fly planes as defined and covered by the AMA. PERIOD.
The old 1981 FAA safety suggestions are now the law.
Better keep that Z-Log low, and return the winnings from that last pattern contest.
Possession of a plane the AMA does not cover in their secondary insurance policy could be illegal, unless you have FAA approval to possess it.

If Kevin has to register with the FAA to fly his “beyond any doubt R/C model” for profit we all loose.

Jim
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 04:19 PM
Look! Up in the sky!
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Grand Junction, Colorado
Joined Jul 2002
4,636 Posts
NOTE: This notice does not apply to the recreational, noncommercial use of model aircraft. It is not intended to inhibit or restrict the routine operation of model aircraft for recreational purposes. (The Academy of Model Aeronautics, in part, defines model aircraft as weighing less than 55 pounds and being operated below 400 feet above ground level.) Additional guidance for the operation of these aircraft is provided in Advisory Circular AC 91-57, Model Aircraft Operating Standards, dated June 9, 1981.


Well, that about ends my career...
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 04:54 PM
Am I registered?
Randy Due's Avatar
Chandler, Tx. USA
Joined May 2003
2,495 Posts
What exactly is "sufficient distance from populated areas"? For that matter, define "populated areas". Define "successfully flight tested and proven airworthy" . (could be a lot of different opinions on what's airworthy ) Exact specifications would be nice, if we are going to need to comply to the advisory circular. "400 ft above the surface" is clear enough, though somewhat limiting. I'm confused.

Randy
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 05:25 PM
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United States, IA, Onawa
Joined Nov 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Nolan (eBird)

Well, that about ends my career...
My career moved to India, I wonder what their R/C laws are like?
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 05:38 PM
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Minneapolis
Joined Jun 2002
1,132 Posts
If I may, let's all not panic....

Really, it's illegal to do pretty much anything if you think about it and we seem to survive quite well. Roger and I took pictures at Lake Calhoun last Sunday and now I find out it's illegal to fly RC in Minneapolis parks....oh well, didn't get caught, they are so quiet, heck, hardly anyone knew...

Lots of this is just best left under a rock...remember, "it's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission", especially with the FAA....

I'm not saying, don't be concerned, what I'm saying is maybe don't be paranoid about it.

If we use good judgement, proven equipment, competent flying and take some care, I think we can do our AP without issues...

Just my opinion - I don't want to start a war.
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 06:10 PM
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CARMICHAEL, CALIFORNIA USA
Joined Apr 2001
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Where does the AMA say it is not cosidered a model if it flys over 400 feet?? No patern contest would meet that restriction, nor the rockets and free flight models as well as some rubber models (Wakefield).
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 06:11 PM
Did You Hear That?
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Tucson, Arizona
Joined Aug 2003
2,156 Posts
Since I am currently the only one "on the hot seat" right now, I might suggest not jumping onto it with me just yet... Let's see what the FAA has to say to me this week first before you all start sticking your necks out as well... There's no sense in putting yourselves in the line of fire yet...

Preparation for the possibilities is a good idea and thinking of organizing amongst ourselves is a good idea, but frankly, this may only effect me if it's done right... Right now, I get the impression that they believe that I am not any threat, but because it has already gone thru "channels" then it has to go back thru "channels" again to satisfy them... I believe the initiating parties, the Tucson airspace manager and the manager of the FSDO are satisfied that I am not a problem, but they don't have the final say... So, let's see who does - first...

By contacting and e-mailing potential problem solvers, you may actually stir up other problems not discussed by the FAA people, yet... Nothing other than the weight of my SS was asked about or mentioned in this action, and I'm not going to bring anything up if they don't...

It may even end up being an advantage to us in the private sector looking for commercial insurance of R/C AP... If the FAA ends up saying we CAN do it with our small, lightweight airplanes then the insurance industry will have a precedent to base their own actuarial systems on...

Kevin
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 06:17 PM
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CARMICHAEL, CALIFORNIA USA
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Good point Kevin.
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 06:28 PM
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CARMICHAEL, CALIFORNIA USA
Joined Apr 2001
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Here is a picture I took this noon. I'm standing in front of the AT-6 with a spotter (one of the owners) I won't tell you where it is but there are three Sea Furies in that hangar!
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 06:33 PM
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CARMICHAEL, CALIFORNIA USA
Joined Apr 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by California Condor
Here is a picture I took this noon. I'm standing in front of the AT-6 with a spotter (one of the owners) I won't tell you where it is but there are three Sea Furies in that hangar!
And in the distace, an Atomic power plant (now shut down by the anti nuker's)
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 07:16 PM
Did You Hear That?
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Tucson, Arizona
Joined Aug 2003
2,156 Posts
Those are nice pics, CC... But, with respect and in my opinion, as I wrote in the other thread and especially during this time:

"I would suggest being careful what you share from now on [or for now], and even consider whether any of your posts could be shown [or construed as] not to be in compliance with FAA AC 91-57 including pics..."

But, I do like 'em...

Maybe edit the text with something like - With the airport manager's permission, my spotter scanning the sky and listening on freq with a handheld for traffic, and my freshly annualed 15 oz snail-flyer cruising at 399 feet per the downlinked on-board GPS - I got these pics...

If you want to cut and paste it, I'll delete mine later...

Kevin
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Old Jun 12, 2004, 07:27 PM
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CARMICHAEL, CALIFORNIA USA
Joined Apr 2001
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I will take you advise for now, (thanks) but I do not intend to be unduly restricted for long.
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