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Old Jan 16, 2002, 03:12 PM
an earth bound misfit, I
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St. Pete, Florida
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Thanks guys, I should have done it like this in the first place.

Something else I found out; if you hold the Fly in your hand and hold it in front of the monitor or a TV you can adjust the speed of the rotor to freeze the blades and check your alignment.

BC
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 03:23 PM
ruf
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jealous
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 04:09 PM
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Hello All,

Well It seems to me there is some tears running down some cheeks here about run times.

Well let me tell you all what you do or dont want to hear, and I hope I dont make anyone upset but thats the way it is. I feel we are all adults or close to it to be able to tell someone the truth.

Ok, first off when I whet to the one meet and watched everyone fly, I noticed not one person was flying forward flight, and if they were they were on the way in to the deck! Everyone was in a tail in hover at various altitudes.

Now when you are flying in this fashion you have a few things going on;

1). Ground efect (If you are 2 feet or lower from the deck)

2). Rotor hub reflow (If you are 2 feet or highter from the deck)


Ok now in either case you are having to throttle up more than need be to stay in the air. There for you have Less run time.

Now if you do forward flight, you will use less throttle as the rotor disk will be creating lift as in the case of a fixed wing aircraft (thats as it was desined to do and the laws of physics say so).

Now as Walt thinks,,, 2.5 minutes on a 150 mah pack, He lost the bet if anyone was betting. I get 3 -3.25 minutes in a hover. BUT, if I am in forward flight,,, I gotten up to 4.5 minutes of run time.

Now If you guys get out of the tail end hovering, and explore your flight envilope, you will see that you can vary your throttle and you will see were you can conserve enrgy as you are flying. There is no reason you should peg the trottle and fly like that. It takes alot more enrgy to hover than anything else you will do. So stop hovering!!!!!!

Get it up ,,, hover for a second,, swing the tail in both directions to see if everything is safe and ok to go, Then go paint the sky!

Bill
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 06:29 PM
jk
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Bill,
first of all, you're not flying a "production" housefly kit, so your flight times won't represent accurately what a HF kit will do.

second, whenever someone wants to measure something accurately, it must be done in a controlled environment. different flying techniques will introduce too many variables and yield different results.

i think most of us are aware that flight times will increase if you fly a heli around, but the most practical way to measure flight times is indoors out of GE in a stationary hover (which obviously requires more power) .

you can criticize the way other people fly, but this is way that we've been measuring flight times on the Piccolo BBS.
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 06:35 PM
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I agree that forward flight will definitely help flight times, but there are a few important items I'd like to point out:

1) Let's not forget we are benchmarking here. We're comparing the flight time of the FLY to the Piccolo, Hornet, what have you, and the easiest way to do this is in a hover. It wouldn't make sense to design some standardized circuit for the sole purpose of inflating flight times. OK, so the FLY gets 2.5 minutes in hover where the Piccolo gets 5 minutes. The FLY in FFF gets 3.5 minutes and the Piccolo gets 6 minutes. Apples and oranges.

2) If we're really going for endurance, I would argue that you actually MAX your flight time when you are hovering in ground effect. The heli moves a column of air downward which enables it to hover. When it is 1-2 feet from the ground, the air sort of billows beneath it, "pushing" the heli up and necessitating less hover power. I'll let the Aero/Astro guys tear me apart on this one.

3) Most importantly: it's called the "House" Fly, not the "Park" or "Yard" Fly. I don't know about your living room, but my den is a little too small to be doing figure eights.

Perhaps we should be testing FLY flight times in a wind tunnel cranked to 40 knots!

Cheers,

Loren

PS --- John beats me to the punch once again! I need to learn to type faster...
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 06:43 PM
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[Well let me tell you all what you do or dont want to hear, and I hope I dont make anyone upset but thats the way it is. I feel we are all adults or close to it to be able to tell someone the truth.

Ok, first off when I whet to the one meet and watched everyone fly, I noticed not one person was flying forward flight, and if they were they were on the way in to the deck! Everyone was in a tail in hover at various altitudes. ]


Bill - I do remember you being at one of our meets, hopefully you can make it to the next one. You are correct in that translational lift during forward flight will increase your flight times, as most of us already know.
Also, FYI I have been to every meet, and never once have I kept a hover for more than a few seconds at a time, I am almost always in forward flight, and rarely hit the deck. I'm sure alot of the club members can comment on this. I normally do not talk about my pilot capabilities, but I could not ignore that statement, sorry.

Regards - Steve
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 07:26 PM
jk
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I can vouch for Steve's flying skills. i've seen him fly at almost every OCfunfly.

and, i haven't seen Bill demonstrate his Housefly in public as of yet.

like Loren said, i thought the housefly was intended for flying in the house.since it was presented as a great trainer or beginner's heli. how is someone supposed to learn to fly if it will only stay airborn for 2.5 minutes? as i doubt that the novice will be doing cicuits with it right off the bat. yes, i guess you could use a tether, but i think 99% of us like to fly without a wired connecting it to the ground. if that were the case you might as well run the control inputs thru the wire and omit the reciever too.

don't get me wrong, i am not flaming the housefly at all, and i intend to make mine fly as long and as well as possible. i purchased the kit and all of the electronics to go with it and i wouldn't want to make an investment like that if i didn't think i could somehow contribute something positive.

if you have read any of my posts on the piccolo and hornet BBS's, i think you might understand what i mean.
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 07:51 PM
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Yeah I agree, I dont like teathered flight , it pulls the heli around and makes it harder work especially when learning, that and I kept on getting the damn lead wrapped around the tail or caught on the skid.

BTW Johnk, your Gnat and Moth look great, especially the CP Gnat. On the Moth you suggest the mabuchi motor, did you try 295 or 310 on the moth ? if so how did it do ?
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 07:51 PM
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Hello John,

Ok I stand to be corrected ,, I never saw steve fly. He was taking pictures of everyone.

As far as my helicopter does not count,,, Well I have the same gears and motors ,, why would it not count. The only thing different is the pich in the blades ,, Mine are more!!! so I have less of an advantage in your eyes.

You should know me by now that Im not ragging on anyone or putting anyone down ,, THATS NOT ME ,, unless they desrve it.

The only reason I gave you guys my times were because walt asked in 2 previous post on this thread. I responded.

The reason I told you guys about forward flight is ,,, its the law of physics!!!!

As Mario stated ,,, what did you expect from a GWS motor ,, Its a little tiny motor. Not the hacker you fly or your 280's. Its a simple little motor!! thats all!!

The thing is so small ,, who cvares if were arguing over 30 seconds of time. Does everything have to be so perfect! Enjoy it, Have fun with it.

Bill
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 08:34 PM
jk
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Bill,

all i'm saying is that different blades/pitch will affect flight times, and we don't know if yours weighs the same as a standard kit or not. the last time i saw it (before it was flying) it looked pretty darn light.

i'm not arguing at all, but i'd sure like to get at least 2 MORE minutes and NOT 30 seconds. 30 seconds would help though. when you're talking about 3 minutes that's 16.67% longer!
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 09:06 PM
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battery power

Hello

You guys want a lot more time. None of you should expect a 5+ min time with a 150 mah pack, it just doesnt make sence. The only reason you are using it is because it is lite and that is the type of equipmnt the Fly needs.

I just found out, from some calls I made, that Energy Sales( http://www.energy-sales.com/lithiumpolymer.html ) sells Ultralife( http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/pr...play.asp?ID=39 )Lithium Polymer Battery packs(7.6 volts per 2 cell pack) that have a 530 mah capacity. The best part is each cell only weighs 15 grams!!!

You can contact Energy Sales at 1 800 96 ENERGY

This is going from what the guy told me, but he said that a person previously purchased five 7.6 volt, 530 mah paks for 38 a piece.


Carlo
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 09:47 PM
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Carlo, this has been done. Do a search on "prismatic". This guy took 600mah cells from a cell phone (18g ea cell). He make a pack from 4 of these (2x2) and got 25min flight times on a hornet. I know this is too heavy for a house fly, but the ever so popular qualcomm 830's weigh in at about 1.9oz for two cells, which is just a tad more than the "starter pack" that MIA recomends (cheap too about $2.50 for a flight pack). I've tested this and even keeping the protection circuit in tack that I can pull 2.8 amps without any problems, and maybe more. People even say that they have pulled as much as 4amps from these cells. I use these on my planes with the same drive system that pulls about 1.8 amps and get flight times of +30min!! With more current draw from the heli, sure this will go down, but its certainly gotta be a heck of alot more than 3min!! I'm eager to try these cells if i ever recieve my fly. Whatever you do, dont pay that much for cells, you can get cell phone batteries on ebay for a small fraction of that are the same thing!!
-curt
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 10:08 PM
jk
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guys, i don't expect to get 5 mins with the 150mah pack, i've got alot of different types of packs to try it with. i'm also going to experiment with some of my own blades, different motors and gear ratios. i'm sure that i'll be able to do it, it'll just take a little time.
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 10:47 PM
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BILL,

I can't quite believe your times, especially considering that you would need power at the end of the flight to hover and land.

It seems courious that this question has been asked for 2 months now and even Mario can't answer it.

Could it be that the actual flight times are lower and it would hurt inital sales if it was divulged too early.

I apreciate that you actually gave an answer though, instead of dodging the issue.

I believe we will get an UNBIASED review when John gets his flying, and if I am wrong I will apologize.

FYI, ground effect extends up aprox 1 1/2 rotor span and requires less power than fff to maintain.

Walt
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Old Jan 16, 2002, 11:06 PM
jk
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Paul (choppa),
thanks. regarding the Moth, i did try it with a 295 but the 180 was alot better. the 180 is lighter, offers a higher rpm and longer flights (less current). i never tried it with a 310 though. ever since i went brushless (AF010), i nver looked back.

the CP gnat is very pleasing to fly as it has TONS of power and control. even though it's almost the same size as a Housefly, it weighs alot more and uses 8 720mah cells. i just got a Hacker for it, but i haven't installed it yet.
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