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Old Mar 13, 2004, 11:33 PM
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Wyatt's Avatar
Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
my first plane

Hi,
I am building my first plane.Right now just start the covering.
The wings are frame so I`m silkspaning them.It`s the first time I`ve used this.I`m impressed.Differnt than anything I have used .I`ve been workijng in bodyshops for years.
I have all kinds of covering stuff.Koverall ,silkspan,coverite
balsarire.and some iron-on.Plus dope I bought "Areogloss"
but don`t know if this will work right if I don`t use the nitrate dope first?I did a peice one of the ailirons with just the dope I have seem to do fine.Got it pretty slick.
I was wondering can I use the stix it to addhesive the silkspan
to the wood first?Then do the dope.The stix it does read that it will work on any covering.Also says that it seals the wood too.
I use a sandable sealer first.
I don`t really know mush about the nitrate dope.Do I need it.
Or is it Areoglass dope do the same.This I couldn`t find out.I also read that with silkspan I should use two layers ,witch I did .
The dope I got comes in 1oz. jar and I got some thinner and mixed it almost 50 / 50.But went through it fast ,but I got more.
If I can use the stix it and just do the dope after that would save alot of dope.

Wyatt
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Old Mar 13, 2004, 11:36 PM
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Wyatt's Avatar
Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
Hi also I like to ask if I can use a mirco servo for my gas linkage?
and 3003 for the ailerons and rudder and elevator.But I guess I should check the volts first?


Wyatt
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Old Mar 14, 2004, 02:46 AM
Big gov never Works
St. Martin's Avatar
Skunk Water, Rhode Island
Joined Jul 2002
12,466 Posts
Re: my first plane

Quote:
Originally posted by Wyatt
Hi,

Plus dope I bought "Areogloss"
but don`t know if this will work right if I don`t use the nitrate dope first?
I was wondering can I use the stix it to addhesive the silkspan
to the wood first?Then do the dope.The stix it does read that it will work on any covering.Also says that it seals the wood too.
I use a sandable sealer first.
I don`t really know mush about the nitrate dope.Do I need it.
Or is it Areoglass dope do the same.This I couldn`t find out.I also read that with silkspan I should use two layers ,witch I did .
The dope I got comes in 1oz. jar and I got some thinner and mixed it almost 50 / 50.But went through it fast ,but I got more.
If I can use the stix it and just do the dope after that would save alot of dope.

Wyatt
This is quite a subject, Wyatt. 99 out of 100 planes I have ever built used a dope finish or a combination using it.

Avoid Butle-rate dope on light structures. Aero-Gloss is not a buty-rate, as some think, but has a higher shrink than Nitrate.

My nitrate comes from SIG,Brodack, and the guy who makes it for all..Randolph's.

Watch the structure using Aero-Gloss. It will shrink days after, and can give you an elliptical dihedral and 20deg. washout in the tips.

I have ironed on silk, silkspan, jap tissue, Kover-all. I use Balsa-Rite fabric formula for the heavy stuff. And, film formula for tissue and silkspan. The effort involved was harder than the old method of doping in place. So long abandoned for silkspan, etc.

Nitrate dope is usually of sufficient shrink for open structure silkspanning on small structures. I only use it to seal the wood and adhere the span to the structure. Then I switch to SIG Low-Shrink Butyl-Rate, to seal the structure completely.

Another source for cellulose lacquer is a furniture refinishing supply. PLEX-II is 17.00 gal. Thinner 10.00 Cheapest yet, and two gal mixed last for a loong time.

Steve
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Old Mar 14, 2004, 03:23 AM
Convert!
rroback's Avatar
Los Angeles, CA (UCLA)
Joined Nov 2002
3,889 Posts
you can use a micro servo for your throttle, depending on the size and positioning of the servo. I should not tell you as this place is for electric planes, but I love all planes, so i'll give whatever advice I can.

rhett
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Old Mar 14, 2004, 03:43 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,674 Posts
Wyatt

Welcome to the Rc GRoups forum.

This particular forum is for the discussion of electric-powered scale models, so I'll move your post to the Builder's Workshop forum, which will then also be visible to readers of the fuel power part of the site, so that you are more likely to get further answers to your building questions.

cheers

Brian
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Old Mar 14, 2004, 09:11 AM
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Wyatt's Avatar
Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
Thanks,
I don`t know if I can get this or not.There is so many different ways of covering ,So many different products.
I did one of my ailerons last night and it came out great .I just used the Aero Glass and silk span.It all seem to bond ,sand and ready to paint.
This morning I did another one.Not so good.I use the baslasa rite.let it dry to the touch applied the silk added heat.then the Aero Glass sand repeated with a nother peice of silk.But it didn`t seem to stick to the wood.comeing up in the middle of the aileron.
I use all my dope on two ailerons .I used 4 oz.two thinners and two dope.This seems to becoming very costly,sence I still have
4 ft. of wing to do.The balasa rite I got was realy thick.Real thick
I did thin a little with the aero thinner.Witch may not be the right thinner.Is the thinner I need to use liquar base? Is the dope a laquar base?
I don`t think I like the silkspan for what I`m building.
It maybe better for smaller planes.
Can I use the koverall instead?I`m more use to the fiber glass sence I have use it alot in bodyshops and I have it here.But been told not to use on open framed.
I can`t seem to understand the use of nitrare dope.What is it?
does it just to hold down the silk?Then apply the areo gloss?I tought the balasa rite and the stix it did that.I`m so confused.

Wyatt
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Old Mar 14, 2004, 10:47 AM
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Campy's Avatar
Connecticut
Joined Aug 2002
128 Posts
The Aero Gloss (dope, aka Bannana oil) acts as an adhesive. It partially disolves the dope underneath, and when dry, fuses into one coat (along the lines of how a polyurethane workes).

I like to use 2 coats of clear thinned 50/50 and sanded with 220/320 on the structure. Then apply the silkspan using the dope straight or a 75/25 dope/thinner. Let this dry, then LIGHTLY sand/feather the edges. At this point you can spray it with water to shrink it. I fill the weave with a 50/50 dope/thinner mix with about 1/8 (by volume) unscented talc added.

You can use Koverall, but the final result, while stronger, WILL BE HEAVIER.

BalsaRite (there are 2 kinds - one for fabric and one for film coverings) and StixIt work also, but unless applied VERY THINNLY may cause lumps/bubbles under the covering.

I am not sure of the size of your plane, but back in the C/L days, I have used silkspan on planes with wingspans of 60+" and weights of 10+lbs without any problems.

Yes, silkspan and Koverall are more work, but the result can be fantastic. If you want to use a low temp pre-colored film, look at UltraCote. For a low temp pre-painted, easy to use, light weight, pre-glued fabric, I can HIGHLY RECOMMEND SolarTex. Coverite fabric is nice, but quite heavy compared to Solartex and not as easy to work with.

Unless you want to paint the plane (to exactly match colors), I would suggest using Ultracote or Solartex. If you want to paint it, pick up your Aero Gloss and thinner in 1 pint (or 1 quart) cans. You can mail order them if you LHS can not get them for you.
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Old Mar 14, 2004, 08:36 PM
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Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
Hey
Thanks for the info and the welcome.I need it,starting to wonder if this is over my head .Some one told me that when I was asking about some plane blueprints.I`ll show `em.
Yes I plain to paint all my planes as I`m a great artist they say.
I like the warbirds.I don`t like the WW1 Germans but I do like there planes.As a airbrush and custom auto painter I must do my own colors on my plane.
All this is beginning to come together in my mined.I must say that it is alot different than I thought,It still keeps me up at night waitting till I get up so I can see what I can get done in my studio.
I hope to have my own RC shop.Just alittle one.Maybe sell a plane or two.But must know more first,There is so mush I don`t know ,So I realy like this form,
I don`t know if I should start a new tread on each question,Or stay with this one till I get this plane built and in the air?

Wyatt
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Old Mar 15, 2004, 10:43 PM
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Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
Hi,
I am playing around with koverall .I have read about it .So I got some.I also read that I could just use polycrylic and not have to use resin.But can`t find what I did with the page I read it.It was on this form. It said that resin was heavier than the polycrylic.
I have read so many differnt things.I have my koverall stuck down with stix it.And thought I would make sure if this would work.When you all talk about epoxy .what do you mean?

Wyatt
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Old Mar 15, 2004, 11:13 PM
Big gov never Works
St. Martin's Avatar
Skunk Water, Rhode Island
Joined Jul 2002
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Wyatt, I don't believe you can use epoxy over Kover-All. The balsa surface under the coverall must be sealed, or the balsa will absorb all the sealing medium used to seal the fabric. You will end up with thousands of pinholes.

Koverall is best used with a Nitrate dope base and sealing. It has the best adhesion to the polyester material. I use Balsarite fabric formula or Stix-it only on the perimeter of the area to cover. Then begin sealing edges with nitrate dope, 3 coats, before doping the entire covered structure.

Once the covering aquires a sheen, it is ready for the finish. A 72hr "gassing off" period is required if using anything other than dope colors. e.g. Acrylics, enamels, etc.

Kover-All is a very strong covering is actually "ceconite" used on small home builts. I have crashed planes and it made its own bag to carry the parts back.

Steve
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Old Mar 16, 2004, 06:00 AM
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Wyatt's Avatar
Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
Hi,
Well its 3.30 in the morning .I `m sanding on my engine crowl
(spelling isn`t my best).I used stix it to hold the koverall down.
then iron it and then used a heat gun.Then I appliede polycrylic
made by Miniwax http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...0&pagenumber=1
This is where I read this and it seems to be doing pretty good.
Getting ready to put 2nd layer of polycrylic on.That should be enough.The ony thing I notice next time I put the glass down
take alittle more care in the overlaps.They don`t disapear as easy as the dope and silk does.
Now I have no ideal what I`m doing .I might have read what "Jim Ryan" wrote in the form above.I agree with what you said also.All the years I have done body work.I thought it took glass to glass to make glass.Like fiber matting and resin.
Oh yeah ,I did seal the wood first with a sandable sealer made by miniwax.sand it then did the stix it all over and made sure it stuck the koverall.I mixed baby powder in with the polycrylic.
It feild the glass real nice.
But maybe the resin does better?I don`t know .

Need to know Wyatt,
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Old Mar 16, 2004, 06:14 AM
Big gov never Works
St. Martin's Avatar
Skunk Water, Rhode Island
Joined Jul 2002
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Wyatt Are you calling Koverall glass? Kover all from SIG is a polyester.

Steve
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Old Mar 16, 2004, 06:44 AM
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Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
Sorry,
I was also wrong about the page I read John Morgan wrote this one I`m talking about.Yes I thought koverall was Glass also.So now lost again. But it doing all right.
Or am I in for a bad surpize?????????

Wyatt
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Old Mar 16, 2004, 06:49 AM
Big gov never Works
St. Martin's Avatar
Skunk Water, Rhode Island
Joined Jul 2002
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You won't be able to sand and get the smooth finish of the glass. Koverall is for duplicating fabric covered surfaces where the weave shows in the finish.

I don't feel a bad surprise is in store for you. Just don't attempt to get a glass like finish. It will be too heavy.

And... keep trying, don't give up trying to learn from failures here and there. I learned that way..

Steve
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Old Mar 16, 2004, 07:02 AM
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Kentucky
Joined Feb 2004
243 Posts
Well ,
I think I can the the engine crowl slick.With two coats.But as fare as the rest of the fuse? I should use dope on the koverall ?
I think it is very costly myself.
So I would need fiber glass sheets to do what j. Morgan did?
Well I guess I`ll be calling my LHS.

Wyatt
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