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Old Feb 15, 2006, 12:27 PM
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Irvine, Calif USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FGuinand
...with a F16 Kyosho... we did try it... putting the ailerons down but it was very unpleasant to fly with a lot of down stick... Francois
Uh??? My Kyosho F-16 landing with flapperons five years ago (on NiCds):

Kyosho F-16 glider landing with flapperons (20 sec)

The Panther lands like a pussycat and does not need much flaps I think (see post above).

Your field seems just seems too small to fly any sort of high performance jets let alone a turbine, and the only safe & sensible solutions seems to me to change field.
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Old Feb 15, 2006, 12:56 PM
It's like an addiction!
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I concur with you Herb!
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Old Feb 15, 2006, 01:02 PM
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Question for you F9J jocks, I'm just about to cut open this fuselage and figure out how to mount the 602's I have for this jet. Anyone have any pictures that like show the parts necessary to get this done? I have downloaded all the pictures that I could find in the Aeronaut Panther threads you's guys have contributed.

Jim.
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Old Feb 15, 2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot44
... how to mount the 602's I have for this jet. Anyone have any pictures that like show the parts necessary to get this done? ...
Jim I don't have more than I posted here, but it should be plenty.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&page=3&pp=100

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...hlight=Panther

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...hlight=Panther
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Old Feb 15, 2006, 01:16 PM
It's like an addiction!
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Can't be of any help on this one Pilot44, sorry.
Chris
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Old Feb 16, 2006, 02:21 AM
I know I'm stupid but...
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Paris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Uh??? My Kyosho F-16 landing with flapperons five years ago (on NiCds):

Kyosho F-16 glider landing with flapperons (20 sec)

The Panther lands like a pussycat and does not need much flaps I think (see post above).

Your field seems just seems too small to fly any sort of high performance jets let alone a turbine, and the only safe & sensible solutions seems to me to change field.
Herb, I did not say that the F16 Kyosho was unpleasant to fly and we do like it, it was just upleasant when i did with stupidity put the ailerons down instead of up to replace flaps ! and if I needed to try the Flaps, it is because with the Kolibri turbine you need to cool it with a air dryer after you stop it for his ball bearing's life, which is not very practical on the field when you have to open the plane and so on.

That is why it is recommanded to cut the engine before the end of the flight to cool the turbine during the 30seconds of gliding. That is why you have only one try for the landing of the Panther, as you cannot start the turbine again (unlike an EDF) . So I was thinkingg that the help of flaps would make it easier to correct the glide in case you are too long or too short...

Your F16 did really land slowly like a dream on the video, was it with the ailerons up ? about 15 ?

My field is not so small, but you need a u turn before the final as you cannot come from very far having a very long approch. The Micro jet that I flew also has a powerfull engine and very light lipos and was recorded at 80 mph in level flight and it can turn and do every things you want and you can use the power again if you are not on the right glide for landing....I do not need flaps for it !

Rc group is really a fantastic place !
Happy landings again to you all !
Francois
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Old Feb 16, 2006, 09:13 AM
It's like an addiction!
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Why don't you construct an EDF fan setup (GWS+Cheap brushed motor+NiCad) and place it in front of the intake duct after landing to cool things down?? I mean not only do you seem to have a less than optimal field for a turbine but you also want to come in "dead stick" with a beautiful Panther - IMHO you might be pressing your luck
Regards, chris
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Old Feb 16, 2006, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot44
Anyone have any pictures that like show the parts necessary to get this done? I have downloaded all the pictures that I could find in the Aeronaut Panther threads you's guys have contributed.

Jim.
I don't know if you found them but I recall a thread by Bob Ruff (or maybe it was inside another thread) where he had a few pics of the skin on the bottom of the jet peeled back and maybe some pics of the mounting method he used. Don't recall where though.

The thing I've noticed with a few airplanes I've tried flaperons on is that dropping the flaps really reduces the aileron effectiveness, so much so that I hesitate to use them at all. Sometimes the airplanes roll to one side if the ailerons don't droop evenly. My current 4S CMP Chipmunk does that, somethings not right in my radio setup. I've had flaperons in my Wattage Mig 15, T-38 pusher, and some others and some others. I have enough room to do a normal approach but they do allow for a slower and/or steeper approach. I haven't noticed any tip stall tendencies but I haven't gone up high to test it either. Seperate flaps seem to be the best way to got but that's not always possible.
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Old Feb 16, 2006, 03:15 PM
I know I'm stupid but...
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Paris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Downwind3Zero
Why don't you construct an EDF fan setup (GWS+Cheap brushed motor+NiCad) and place it in front of the intake duct after landing to cool things down?? I mean not only do you seem to have a less than optimal field for a turbine but you also want to come in "dead stick" with a beautiful Panther - IMHO you might be pressing your luck
Regards, chris
Thank you for your help. The problem with the Kolibri turbine is that you have to cool it just after the flight (it turn a nice 240.000 rpm !) and the ball bearing will have a much longer life as the builder told me...and I have already in the kit a nice Hairdryer that do nicely the cooling, but it must be close to entrance of the turbine, and from the air intake of the panther it is too far, specially with only one side to be used , and even more ennoying I will have to cut some of the tube of the air intake to put the tank and leave some room so that I can put a tube with a flat L shape to connect the hairdryer to the front of the turbine...

That is why the pure gliding to the green grass is very helpful ! anyway I always do land that way, so I'm a bit use to it...of course for the first flight with the Panther I will chose a field with nothing standing within half a mile all around !

If you want to now more about that little turbine I'm so found of, please look at this video:


http://www.turbinemuseum.de/teddyjet.wmv


...and please tell me what you think !

Happy landings !
Francois
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Old Feb 16, 2006, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Waldrep
I don't know if you found them but I recall a thread by Bob Ruff (or maybe it was inside another thread) where he had a few pics of the skin on the bottom of the jet peeled back and maybe some pics of the mounting method he used. Don't recall where though.

The thing I've noticed with a few airplanes I've tried flaperons on is that dropping the flaps really reduces the aileron effectiveness, so much so that I hesitate to use them at all. Sometimes the airplanes roll to one side if the ailerons don't droop evenly. My current 4S CMP Chipmunk does that, somethings not right in my radio setup. I've had flaperons in my Wattage Mig 15, T-38 pusher, and some others and some others. I have enough room to do a normal approach but they do allow for a slower and/or steeper approach. I haven't noticed any tip stall tendencies but I haven't gone up high to test it either. Seperate flaps seem to be the best way to got but that's not always possible.
Ed, Yup, I agree with your assessment. Coming in a bit hot is no problem where I fly, we have decent paved runways. We'll see. Actually, I would lift the ailerons up a taste on both wings to indroduce some counterfit washout. Might be able to raise the angle of attack enough to slow her up a bit more before tip stall. But I would do nothing till I fly this jet and get a handle on its slow flight characteristics.



Jim
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Old Feb 16, 2006, 03:51 PM
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Wellington, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FGuinand
Thank you for your help. The problem with the Kolibri turbine is that you have to cool it just after the flight (it turn a nice 240.000 rpm !) and the ball bearing will have a much longer life as the builder told me...and I have already in the kit a nice Hairdryer that do nicely the cooling, but it must be close to entrance of the turbine, and from the air intake of the panther it is too far, specially with only one side to be used , and even more ennoying I will have to cut some of the tube of the air intake to put the tank and leave some room so that I can put a tube with a flat L shape to connect the hairdryer to the front of the turbine...

That is why the pure gliding to the green grass is very helpful ! anyway I always do land that way, so I'm a bit use to it...of course for the first flight with the Panther I will chose a field with nothing standing within half a mile all around !

If you want to now more about that little turbine I'm so found of, please look at this video:


http://www.turbinemuseum.de/teddyjet.wmv


...and please tell me what you think !

Happy landings !
Francois

Yes it's a neat little turbine, but the thrust is small and for the price you can get a Wren 44 or 54 and put it in a larger airframe like the Savex L-39 or F-16. AMA regulations pretty much erase the thought of doing what your planning on, no brakes or rudder is a problem. Of course unless you have a place to fly it unregulated.
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Old Feb 17, 2006, 04:53 AM
I know I'm stupid but...
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Paris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mode101
Yes it's a neat little turbine, but the thrust is small and for the price you can get a Wren 44 or 54 and put it in a larger airframe like the Savex L-39 or F-16. AMA regulations pretty much erase the thought of doing what your planning on, no brakes or rudder is a problem. Of course unless you have a place to fly it unregulated.
I did not know about those AMA rules, but...I think it's difficult to put some brakes when you dont have a landing gear !
What about the ME163 that you see on somes important events ? it has no landing gears either.....?

I suppose that the necessity to have a rudder is for driving the plane on the ground ? but with a bungee launch and no gears, the utility of the rudder appear to be not so evident, is not it ?

And the dangerousity of a 4 pounds plane with a trust of 3.3 pounds is not evident compare with a plane of 30 pounds and with a 40 pounds of trust....
life is difficult somes times....
Francois
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Old Feb 19, 2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FGuinand
... land slowly like a dream on the video, was it with the ailerons up ? about 15 ? ...
Flaps = DOWN = 15-20 degrees ca.
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Old Feb 19, 2006, 03:58 PM
I know I'm stupid but...
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Paris
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Flaps, Spoilerons,Flapperons...I'm lost !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Flaps = DOWN = 15-20 degrees ca.
hello Herb,
I did not know you had flaps on the Kyosho !!! I thought you was speaking to put the aileron up about 15 to replace the missing flaps by lowering the lift of the wings which would need then a greater angle of attack, and so add more drag ...

And on our Kyosho we dont have flaps, how is that ?

I'm a bit lost now....

Help...
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Old Feb 19, 2006, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FGuinand
And the dangerousity of a 4 pounds plane with a trust of 3.3 pounds is not evident compare with a plane of 30 pounds and with a 40 pounds of trust....
life is difficult somes times....
Francois
Dangerousity?

It's a fire thing, turbines burn when they crash if you don't shut the motor off before impact.
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Old Feb 19, 2006, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FGuinand
hello Herb, ... I'm a bit lost now....
Yes you are definitely lost . Did you actually read my post ??? Flapperons = ailerons used as FLAPS. That is both ailerons DOWN 15 degrees (with the plane held canopy UP).
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 12:41 AM
It's like an addiction!
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NY, Rochester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FGuinand
If you want to now more about that little turbine I'm so found of, please look at this video:


http://www.turbinemuseum.de/teddyjet.wmv


...and please tell me what you think !

Happy landings !
Francois
Well, I'll admit it's a neat little toy but you'll definately get more "umpf" for the $$$$.$$ with an EDF (although you'll get a bigger "bang" with a turbine ) If I ever get assimilated by the "dark side" it won't be with a "toy" turbine... but that's just me No offence intended Francois!

regards, Chris
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 08:07 AM
I know I'm stupid but...
FGuinand's Avatar
Paris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
Yes you are definitely lost . Did you actually read my post ??? Flapperons = ailerons used as FLAPS. That is both ailerons DOWN 15 degrees (with the plane held canopy UP).
Of course Herb I always read very carefully every thing you write !! it's true, because I find it always interesting...

... but as somes days before somes other pilots told me that I should put the ailerons up to have some equivalent result as Flaps in terms of drag, I could not understand anymore...specially when I said that that I did already try and fly putting the aileron down and that it did make the kyosho unpleasant to fly as I did not have so much power left in roll, they all told me that it was normal because I did it the wrong way, and that I should put the ailerons up about 10 to 15....

And now you tell me the opposit...I believ you as i saw your video prouving it, and showing the Kyosho landing in less than 3 feets...

The only thing that I think I understud now , is that ailerons up are called "Spoilerons" and ailerons down "Flaperons"....

Can you tell me the advantage of one compare to the other ? for a slow understanding wanna be RC model pilot who seems to understand better only when he sit inside the flying machine.... with already more than 2.400 hours under his belt and only in open cockpit tail drager biplane with no Flaps or what ever, just a stick and two pedals... or in a small Robinson R22...

Thank you in advance for trying to save me from some unecessary crashes that may happen during some of my future and new selftesting of any other misunderstud tricks...

Thank you Herb...
Life is beautiful !
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 02:14 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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HERB, will you be at the Florida Jet meeting begining of march ? I will be happy to meet you there if you go also .
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 06:58 PM
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Spoilerons will reduce wing lift, (roughly, its like a smaller wing, reduces the wing area)
Flaperons will increase wing lift( sort of like the undercambered wings on slowflyers)
Both types also increase drag but with typical EDFs, spoilerons are a bad idea as theres not much lift generated by the small wings anyway.(it'll glide like a rock!)
Flaps or flaperons will generate more lift at slower speeds, thus you can slow the plane down much more and it'll still fly.
Anyway thats my understanding of it!
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Old Feb 20, 2006, 10:03 PM
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My take on this is this. If the ailerons are full length, adding spoilerons increases wing tip washout, while flaperons on this type of wing can add drag and lift, but look at the wing tip. Now you have added instability because you have wash-IN... bad bad bad. If the ailerons are NOT full length, then the wingtip will have effective washout when the flaps are deployed.

just my take on it, and how different methods will work better for slowing down a plane. Spoilerons are used on the SB Sabre and I would never try flaperons on it. I would not fancy a slow tip stall on that baby.

Spar
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FGuinand
they all told me that it was normal because I did it the wrong way, and that I should put the ailerons up about 10 to 15....
And now you tell me the opposit...
Just an idea - why don't you buy a cheap (all is relative), forgiving EDF and try different setups? An Alfa MiG, for example... You could put two small servos into the wings and experiment with different setups. Ailerons up, ailerons down, you probably can install four servos and have two split flaps on the wing's insides as well.

I use an old, battered FVK HE162 if I feel the need of trying such things myself (not too often). If I would crash a new, expensive Panther with a turbine, because of not heaving tried something out before, I'd kick myself. But that's just me.

Good luck - Paco

PS, on re-reading some previous answers, I noticed that you have a Kyosho F16? Why don't you use this as a testbed - you wouldn't even have to buy a new plane....
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 02:22 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Yes but on the Kyosho F-16 we trued flaperons (ailerons down), and the plane was not pleasant at all, needed much up trim and lost a lot al maneuvrability.

So,we wonder if airerons up (spoilrons ??) will be a better idea to help to land.

NOTE : Our problem is not such as to have a low speed landing than to be able to have a landing approach not too flat - The F16 fly for-ever, and we have trees all around the landing spot, so we need to have an aproach with a good descente rate !
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
So,we wonder if airerons up (spoilrons ??) will be a better idea to help to land.
Okay, try that and tell us if it worked!

Best regards - Paco
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 07:17 AM
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Specificly for the Panther with its part span ailerons, setting those up for flaps/flaperon will increase the mean AoA of the outboard section. That is bad.

Spoilerons will on the same Panther give washout which will delay stall on the outer wing section. This is good if you want to rise the nose a little. Spoilerons also reduce lift. So in combination with reduced lift and higher nose and therefore more drag the rate of sink is much more manageable. It also delay any tipstalling tendencies which give the pilot a better low-speed manouverenvelope.

The Panther is a very smooth plane and can glide "forever", something to control the decent is very welcome and IMO spoilerons are the proper thing to use for the Panther.
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 11:41 AM
I know I'm stupid but...
FGuinand's Avatar
Paris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor
Specificly for the Panther with its part span ailerons, setting those up for flaps/flaperon will increase the mean AoA of the outboard section. That is bad.

Spoilerons will on the same Panther give washout which will delay stall on the outer wing section. This is good if you want to rise the nose a little. Spoilerons also reduce lift. So in combination with reduced lift and higher nose and therefore more drag the rate of sink is much more manageable. It also delay any tipstalling tendencies which give the pilot a better low-speed manouverenvelope.

The Panther is a very smooth plane and can glide "forever", something to control the decent is very welcome and IMO spoilerons are the proper thing to use for the Panther.
Thank you Haldor ! I think that now will all the differents advices (which are not always in the same direction...), I think that finally it will better at least for the Panther , to use as you said ,spoilerons as the ailerons are not full span, and so the tip stalling will have less occasions to bother us...

Any way now I will have to start to put my hands in the mechanic and built an EDF powered Panther (that I already own new in box with a Schubeler fan, batteries and so on...) and at the same times I will try and get used to manage the Turbine now that I have built the test stand I bought the Kerozene last weekend....

And after that I will built the Panther for the Kolibti when Aeronaute will have delivered the ones we ordered in Aramid with 2 sets of wings (one with flaps and the other without), so we will have a few try in front of us... ).

They said they will be ready to send to us early march ....

It's a bit more difficult to built because it is designed for a turbine, but it can be done as I have look after for a few hours and thought how to fix every thing...not forgetting that at the end of the day the C of G should be at the right place....

Thank you all for your kind helps

Life is difficult some times , but so beautyful !
Happy landings..
Francois
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Old Feb 21, 2006, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor
Specificly for the Panther with its part span ailerons, setting those up for flaps/flaperon will increase the mean AoA of the outboard section. That is bad.

Spoilerons will on the same Panther give washout which will delay stall on the outer wing section. This is good if you want to rise the nose a little. Spoilerons also reduce lift. So in combination with reduced lift and higher nose and therefore more drag the rate of sink is much more manageable. It also delay any tipstalling tendencies which give the pilot a better low-speed manouverenvelope.

The Panther is a very smooth plane and can glide "forever", something to control the decent is very welcome and IMO spoilerons are the proper thing to use for the Panther.
I concur with Haldor on this theory.

Jim
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Old Feb 22, 2006, 09:56 AM
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Back to the power question, in an earlier post I asked about detuning my top end down from 1200+ watts to 900-1000. Since there is no way to really do that without resetting transmitter each flight I was thinking about ordering two 2s packs to make two complete 5s1p packs. [Kokam 3200 20c cellpro] I'm guessing this will get me down to around 950 watts. What I'm getting at here is this,is it better to go with a higher voltage and fly at reduced throttle or go with the 5s1p setup? Flight time and motor life are considerations. Thanks gang, Doug
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Old Feb 23, 2006, 02:06 AM
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Reduced throttle (ca 70% - 99%) unduly stresses most controllers, 5S is a better, more dependable choice.
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Old Feb 28, 2006, 10:35 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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2 Aramid panther in the built ! 1 Kerozene, 1 EDF.

OK, now that I have this LAMBERT Micro Kerozene turbine, and that I a waiting for my delivery from Aeronaul of my TWO Aramid panther, I know that I will have some busy months !

- Panther 1 will be with FLAPS and use the Kerozene turbine (flaps needed due to residual 200grammes thrust of the turbine at iddle)

- Panther 2 will be EDF (May be, May be not Flaps). And here... I need advices !

Daniel Schubeler suggest : DS51-Dia + MAster 77 + Hacker 50L-15 + "his" 6s 3800 HDHE LiPo

SO:

A - Is the Hacker 50l-15 a good choice ? I see that HERB is using a 50S. This allow to save some 50 grammes, but the efficiency of the "short" motor must be less than the efficiency of a longer 50L ??

B - I am wondering if 3800 mA will be enough for a decent flying time ? Expecialy when I see on this forum some guys using 6s3p 6000 mA cells !!

On alternative I am considering is 6s2p 4200 Prolite Thunder Power (expecialy since I have TP chargers/equilizer, and therefore will not have to change the equalizing cable ) or ma be like some crazy fellow here 6s3p6000 TP ( I really wonder if it is not TOO heavy/TOO much ??)

SO.... What capacity and what brand to you suggest ? (Does someone has tested his 3800HDHE ?)


C - I know the Master 77 is a very good choice but it need to add an external BEC or Rx-Battery. is there some ESC that Include BEC and can manage 6s/50A ? May be the JAZZ 60-10-32 ???




So many interesting projects, so little time


Thanks for the advice


PS : I am going to the Florida Jet Meeting, so let me know if some of you want to meet me there or... want me to bring some specific infos from there.
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Old Feb 28, 2006, 11:53 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Regarding my mast question, I am wondering : can I just use the JAZZ 55-6-18 that I already owe ?? I use already one with my DS30, but under only 4S.

This JAZZ It HAS BEC and tolerate 6s and 55A.

What do you think ? (Or may be a JAZZ 80-6-18 may be mo resonable ?)
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:35 AM
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What is the max weight of the panther ready to fly? Mine is coming in at 5# 2 oz. It feels very heavy. A good portion of the weight is the power system. With the midi, kontronic 600-17 and 2 kokam 3200 3cell packs. I guess I'll see how it goes. I could have saved a 1/2 lb by installing the jepe spiderfan which has been providing great service in my F-16. Maiden this weekend i hope...... Doug
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 05:36 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Nobody ansewred my question about batteries: :-( :-(

I am wondering if 3800 mA will be enough for a decent flying time ? Expecialy when I see on this forum some guys using 6s3p 6000 mA cells !!

On alternative I am considering is 6s2p 4200 Prolite Thunder Power (expecialy since I have TP chargers/equilizer, and therefore will not have to change the equalizing cable ) or ma be like some crazy fellow here 6s3p6000 TP ( I really wonder if it is not TOO heavy/TOO much ??)

SO.... What capacity and what brand to you suggest ? (Does someone has tested his 3800HDHE ?)
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Old Mar 05, 2006, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Bateman
What is the max weight of the panther ready to fly? Mine is coming in at 5# 2 oz. It feels very heavy. A good portion of the weight is the power system. With the midi, kontronic 600-17 and 2 kokam 3200 3cell packs. I guess I'll see how it goes. I could have saved a 1/2 lb by installing the jepe spiderfan which has been providing great service in my F-16. Maiden this weekend i hope...... Doug
It should fly fine, no need to worry . Mine flew at around that weight on 16GP cells w/o gear, and later with Springair 602 retracts and 6S Kokam 3200 Lipos.
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Old Mar 09, 2006, 02:22 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Damaged intake : how to fix it

I received my 2 Panthers ( 1 for EDF and 1 for Lambert's MicroTurbine convertion).

It is ARAMID version, but as some guessed here, this Aramid version is not much lighter than the standard fiberglass version (That my Uncle owe). 890 grammes total kit instead of 910 grammes !

But, I have apparently the usual intake defaut

The intake lips are not glued properly !

- Please can you Confirm that this is a "common " default ? I should say "normal" may be

- Please can you remind me how to fix this properly. For the side of the intake toward the insde of the fuse, it is easy to access, but for the 2 external sides ! ! Can access to the "glossy side" so how can I add a layer of fiberglass or aeropoxy ?

I don't know if returning the fuse to aeronaut will help because so far I have seen 3 fuses (my 2 aramid + My Uncle's fiberglass), and ALL 3 have this intake problem ???





and also, I have some litle damages on the wings. But this I can handle it. It is rather the intake "usual" problem that will need a lot of time to be corectly fixed.

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Old Mar 10, 2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
this Aramid version is not much lighter than the standard fiberglass version (That my Uncle owe). 890 grammes total kit instead of 910 grammes !
Just out of interest - how much more $$$'s are those 20G weight savings?

Best regards - Paco
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
I don't know if returning the fuse to aeronaut will help because so far I have seen 3 fuses (my 2 aramid + My Uncle's fiberglass), and ALL 3 have this intake problem ???
The intake are not glued at the factory, this is a step required for the builder to complete. Just glue them on with a good slow curing epoxy after you have sanded the areas that will bond together. So no, there is no grounds to send the fuse back to Aeronaut, that is the way they come.
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
... I have apparently the usual intake defect ...
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=307

"Those who can read have always an advantage"
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 02:17 PM
Let er Rip
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"Those who can read have always an advantage" [/QUOTE]



J
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 03:31 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Thanks Haldor and Herb for the imput. I feel better.

But this strange : They look however "partially glued", not strongly enough to hold during flight, and not loose enough to access the "outside" of the intake without tearing apart the connection ??!!??

I thought using a 1" fiberglass cloth + epoxy around the outside of the intake at the joint level ? Will it be ok ?
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 03:56 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Well Paco, Those Aramid were +100$ than the standard version. I must say that I expected a much more important waight gain !
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:02 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Herb, do you have the drawing (CAD, Acrobat....) of the Retract mounts (the various ply pieces ) that you have manufactured (mains & nose). Indeed, I would like to make the same retract for my panther without having to replicate the hours that you must have spent to make the pieces fit perfectly in the fuse.

thanks in advance

Bertrand MICHELS
bmaa@voila.fr
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:17 PM
It's like an addiction!
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Equation: 100$ for 20gr less, then add retracts - go figure....
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 04:33 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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so what ????? aren't we here to be crazy and have fun ????
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
Herb, do you have the drawing (CAD, Acrobat....) of the Retract mounts (the various ply pieces ) that you have manufactured (mains & nose). Indeed, I would like to make the same retract for my panther without having to replicate the hours that you must have spent to make the pieces fit perfectly in the fuse.

thanks in advance

Bertrand MICHELS
bmaa@voila.fr
Yea Herb, you got that...... ,

Jim
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Old Mar 10, 2006, 06:13 PM
Hey Now
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Panther pictures

Here is a link to my local Warbird museum photo album with Panther pictures.
http://community.webshots.com/user/mustang32/0

See ya-Scott
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Old Mar 11, 2006, 02:18 AM
It's like an addiction!
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Scott, Very nice pictures!!!
regards, Chris
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Old Mar 11, 2006, 02:47 AM
Zoom-Zoom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmaaa
so what ????? aren't we here to be crazy and have fun ????
And to spend the gross national product of a small contry on a single plane? Betcha!

I'll rest my case...

Best regards - Paco
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 02:34 AM
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Well guys i've stopped talking the talk and now i'm walking the walk! It's been almost two years and i've just got around to almost finishing the panther! I just need to add a clear coat!
Here are a few pictures!
Thanks guys, for questions, answers, and posted pictures! Thanks Ken for helping me with my decided choice of paint scheme!
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 02:51 AM
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Wow it's a beauty! Paint scheme is great!
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 03:46 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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And it must be very visible in the air !

congratulation
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 07:28 AM
Purple power
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Andrew:
You've become a monster at beautiful detailing

Outstanding!!
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 08:09 AM
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Demetrius

Your Panther is beautiful. Congratulations.

Bob
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 09:37 AM
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excellant, nicely done. Good luck with her.

Jim
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 11:47 AM
Build'em and Crash'em
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Demetrius ,

Great job on the colors, that is going to look FANtastic in the air

- Ken
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demetrius
Well guys i've stopped talking the talk and now i'm walking the walk! ...
Very nice Andrew, I love it, good luck with the maiden ... !
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Old Mar 12, 2006, 07:51 PM
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Thanks again guys! Here's a picture that i missed of the underside!
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 06:48 PM
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ok hook placement? Is it placed as aeronaut recommends or closer to LE? Seems like it might work better maybe one inch closer to LE than as recommended by aeronaut? Any comments guys?

Also, i am wondering if anyone had holes for battery cooling? I am going with tp4200.

thanks!
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 07:02 PM
Purple power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demetrius
ok hook placement? Is it placed as aeronaut recommends or closer to LE? Seems like it might work better maybe one inch closer to LE than as recommended by aeronaut? Any comments guys?

Also, i am wondering if anyone had holes for battery cooling? I am going with tp4200.

thanks!
Andrew:
IIRC I located it half way between the nose and cg.
I didn't have cooling until I went with the retracts. Gunports are a cooling option though.

gregg
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Old Mar 13, 2006, 07:30 PM
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Looks like on mine it was just ahead of the intakes ...

Left every retract opening wide open with LiPos - closed retract doors would most likely have cooked the LiPos .


.
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Old Mar 14, 2006, 04:05 AM
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On my RBC version I opened the gunports and cut a small opening in the duct before the fan. The fan sucks air through the gunports and provides cooling air. I tested it with a wool strand and there is good suction. Works well.

Bob
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Old Mar 14, 2006, 08:08 AM
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Beautiful detailing and paint Andrew!!
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Old Mar 14, 2006, 08:46 AM
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Andrew, that is one nice paint scheme!. I just completed mine but lost it on second flight due to wing spar failure in the fuselage.The formers were cracked when I received it and I guess my repairs didn't help.I would like to get another but don't know at this time . Good luck with yours. Doug
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Old Mar 14, 2006, 09:58 AM
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I have no holes for cooling, the pack isnt taxed either. Hook placed 2-3" ahead of wing.
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 03:50 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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2 kg Turbine panther !

I just started the " Kerozene Panther" project.

I will open a new thread as soon as I start the building of the "special version" of the panther that I received from Aeronaut ( Aramid & Flaps ).

So far I have just started the tests of the turbine.

Considering a weight of 750 grammes for the complete propulsion system INCLUDING kerozene for 7 minutes flight, the take_off weight should be at 2kg, and... the landing weight at 1.7 kg ( 1.5 Kg thrust)





But, Yes your reading is correct : + 240.000 rpm (iddle is at 110.000 rpm)

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Old Mar 21, 2006, 03:55 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Only 200 grammes in the hand ! !

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Old Mar 21, 2006, 04:00 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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In the mean time, since the project might be looonnngggggg, I will have fun with a new electric baby !






Unless.... i also decide to put 2 Kerozene turbine in it (joking !)
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 04:37 PM
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Just for your information, turbine models are discussed here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34

and here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Jets/forumid_120/tt.htm

The subject of this thread is the EDF=Electric Ducted Fan Aeronaut Panther. Thank you for your understanding.
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Old Mar 21, 2006, 05:14 PM
Bertrand MICHELS
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I know, I know Herb, and I will start the "building thread" in the appropriate Thread.

Wowever, since this project is based on the convertion of an "electric kit", I thought this will be fun to let people know what I will do with a Panter kit.
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 02:20 AM
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Well guys I've got good news and bad news! Well the bad news first! I finally got to the park to maiden the panther and bumped into Gregg. I really thought with the moring mild rain that very few people would show up but to my surprise more people were there than i anticipated. So i asked Gregg to take her up for a test run!Now for the bad news! I left my radio crystals at home due working on seting up another plane last night and trying to get to the park in a hurry! realizing this, I told Gregg that i'll just go to LHS to pick up one and i'll be back and he told me that maybe it's karma! But no, i remembered that i don't believe in Karma so off to the LHS! There i was met by more bad news! "Sorry sir but we only carry hitec!" NO THIS REALLY CAN'T BE KARMA!!!! So, i did what any normal enthusiastic rc modeler would do!
I went home and returned to maiden that puppy!!!!! I gotta tell you she's fast and twitchy! not as stable as my jepe a-4 but damn sure is just as quick!!!! damn quick! I did notice that she tended to nose down just a bit! not sure if it's due to the 1.5mm down trim or cg but i will work out the kinks!!! btw Herb i flew with 3mm elevator and that may have contributed to the twitchy effect! I still can't get over how quick she is!!!
setup is; mega 30/3t, hacker77, 8s2p 4200s and 1400watts at a cold pack not even warm! Tempurtures after flight were not even luke warm!
more to come!!
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 07:13 AM
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congrats on a successful maiden. Always a pleasure to see positive results.
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 07:36 AM
who dares wins
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Your Panther looks Fantastic!!

is that a schreiner L39 next to her?
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 11:04 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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mega 30/3t, hacker77, 8s2p 4200s .... this is a "Hot" set-up compared to my Hacker 50 & 6s Pack !!

This may explain why she is faaaaaasssssssssssst !
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like2fly!
Your Panther looks Fantastic!!

is that a schreiner L39 next to her?
Thanks and no it's K&A's model!
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 01:57 PM
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Congrats on the Panther maiden! Both jets looks great!

Bruce
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Old Apr 16, 2006, 10:52 PM
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Right on man,,,,,,, she looks sweet......

Gene
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 01:43 AM
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Very nice Panther Andrew, glad it all worked out !!
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 02:56 PM
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Very nice job on the Panther. I put the sixth flight on my repaired Panther yesterday.It had been damaged on it's second flight but I was able to piece it back together and purchase a new canopy and tail from Markos.It would have been a complete loss but I had filled the nose and area around the ducting with expanding urathane foam. I'm running a modified midifan with kontronic 600-17 ,jeti 70 esc,ubec and 6s1p 3200 kokam cells.It's a rocket and I have not even gone to full throttle yet.The aircraft is one of the best flying airframes iv'e ever flown.It's rock steady , rolls like it's on a string and slows down nicely with a flat landing approach. Only thing I would change is the launching hook location. I have it at 2.5" in front of the intakes but noticed on video replay that when it leaves the stability of my ramp it goes into a nose high attitude and requires down elevator to control. I'm thinking if I move the hook toward the nose it will help. I think i like this plane better than my Jepe F-16. I'm not sure what is doing it but the plane has a distinct whistle when flying that sounds very jetlike and the overall package I couldn't be happier with.
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Old Apr 17, 2006, 10:28 PM
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i've seen greggs panther off the bungee, and it to has a nose high attitude, infact at visalia over a year ago someone snapped off a pic of the panther right off the lauch ramp, and boy was that nose pointed to the sky.

Gene
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 06:57 PM
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Update on panther! Well i thought i would follow Haldors way of attaching the wings by adding very small screws in the spars! Not a good idea! Sorry, haldor, but i hope you don't take offense to this but that setup got me a snapped wing in flight with an ejected 8s 4200tp pack! Oh yea! Actually due to the fact that the batteries took flight is what saved the plane. The plane floated down with only the elevator cracked and of course where the spars gave way. Anyway i ended up re-glueing the spars with new carbin rods and reglueing the elevator. A little touch up paint and she was back flying today! I am posting this so that others who might think of using this method might think of an alternative measure! OBTW, i am still looking for that 8s pack! It's gotta be out there somewhere!
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 08:15 PM
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=266
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Old Aug 23, 2006, 03:44 PM
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I got two flights on my trusty old Panther today after spending some time on a mid-life udate to the airframe and setup. The plane needed some maintanance after numerous flights, the carbon spar tubes in both wings had developed cracks in the stubs that go into the fuselage, so I glued in 10cm long pieces of 6mm carbon tubes inside the existing tubes. Also I had to fix a crack in the bottom skin of the horizontal stab and some small nicks here and there. The power package also got an upgrade, at first I used 18 1950FAUP NiMh cells, then I switched to 5S 6000 mAh TP, and today I tried out my new 3S 4900 XCell packs, two in series making it a 6S.

I logged power with my eMeter and got the following results : 22,5V 65,5A giving 1474W

I also have a Eagletreesystems Micropower that was onboard logging the inflight load, and I have included the results here. As can be seen, the fan does not unload much at all, so do not try to save any money on ESC size in a jet. I have a HM 77 Opto and it does need ample cooling to survive in this application, batteries do not need cooling, they hold up very good at this load. I will try to get a temp sensor installed on the motor, as it did get a bit hot during a static test run last night. It is a XL can, but it does not have the C50 segmented rotor so I guess I need to watch the temp closely on this one.
Now it will be torn down for paint, I'm getting a bit tired of flying it unfinished as I have for the last two years( it's so much fun to fly I never found the time to paint and decorate it ) I have decided on the scheme and will be back with photos once I'm done.

Oh, and I'll have to agree with Herb, tape for holding the wings in place are the way to go.
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Old Aug 25, 2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arngeir Blakseth
... getting a bit tired of flying it unfinished as I have for the last two years( it's so much fun to fly I never found the time to paint and decorate it ) I have decided on the scheme and will be back with photos once I'm done.

Oh, and I'll have to agree with Herb, tape for holding the wings in place are the way to go.
Angeir, post pictures of your Panther, even unpainted!!

Two years on an edf is a pretty good record, how many don't make it past the first flight because somebody's garage door opener just went off at the wrong time ...


.
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Old Aug 25, 2006, 01:54 PM
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Small flying Aeronaut Panther Gallery


.
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Old Aug 25, 2006, 05:47 PM
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I'll tell you, I love mine and will post some pics this weekend. I fly it on two different packs both 3200 but one is 6 cell other is 5. Kokam packs rock. The plane's performance leaves nothing to be desired. And with cooler weather coming it will fly even better. I think this is the perfect size for EDF.The next step up is a big leap and since I have the Savex L-39 combo this is as big as I want to get for electrics. I just sold the last remnants of my gas powered planes and see no need at this time to fly the slimers any more. I know I could be bitten by the bug again some time in the future but i'll deal with it when the time comes. Doug
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Old Aug 28, 2006, 05:58 PM
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... The new Kokam 3200 SLPB 3C (Orion) cells seem a bit thinner than the old Kokam 3200's - Hopefully their long term quality will be as good as the old ones, and with a correctly dimensioned pcb board .

http://kokam.com/product/product_pdf...0mAh_Grade.pdf

If Tower will continue carrying them, the price should go down a bit in time... Right now I am looking at $600 for a second 12S pack for the Rafale, which is a bit pricy.
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Old Oct 07, 2006, 08:56 PM
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I took Herb and Greggs advice...and Holediggers Panther came up for sale at the right time....
and heres my new baby!
1500watts of fun!
Maiden flight for me tomorrow at Sepulveda basin!
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Old Oct 07, 2006, 09:35 PM
Purple power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmiller
I took Herb and Greggs advice...and Holediggers Panther came up for sale at the right time....
and heres my new baby!
1500watts of fun!
Maiden flight for me tomorrow at Sepulveda basin!
What time?
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Old Oct 07, 2006, 09:41 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
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Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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Oh I don't know.
I figure around 11-12
Maybe Andrew will bring his out too?
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Old Oct 07, 2006, 09:56 PM
Purple power
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shadow hills,ca
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Sounds good.
I won't say what I saw Andrew fly today
But it required a paper towel for clean up....
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Old Oct 07, 2006, 10:03 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
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Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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Better cleanup my act!
Heres a couple more shots, figured I better take pics before flying it!
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Last edited by bmiller; Oct 07, 2006 at 11:13 PM.
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 01:54 AM
Bertrand MICHELS
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Belgium
Joined Nov 2003
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black red yellow... should be highly visible in flight !
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 03:01 AM
who dares wins
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London,England
Joined Apr 2005
1,853 Posts
have fun Bruce , fantastic looking jet!!

wish i was in CA! just got back from the flying field, its 9am, clear morning , no wind , but SO! wet..! and it hasn't even rained for 36 hours
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Last edited by like2fly!; Oct 08, 2006 at 03:23 AM.
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 01:05 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
bmiller's Avatar
Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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It's got blue too Bmaaa!
Thanks Alex! it looks cloudy today, I should've done the maiden yesterday!
Leavin for the field now, cya!
Bruce
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 08:34 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
bmiller's Avatar
Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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It flies!
Glad I waited til today, the control throws were much less then I figured on(TLAR)
And with Pete, Gregg,and Andrew(with his Panther) helping it was pretty much dialed in before flight, only needing a few clicks here and there to trim.
I had double Andrews aileron movement and the roll rate was about 3 per second! Too fast for me so I will cut movement in half for next flight.
I was nervous and busy doing last minute stuff and didn't take any pics of it!
Gregg however got some video!
It tracks well and with somewhere around 1 to 1 thrust, vertical is excellent!
Much thanks guys for all the help at the field!
Bruce
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 08:39 PM
Parrothead Extraordinaire
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Island of Margaritaville.No parallels of latitude or longitude mark the spot exactly. Passports are not required
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Right-on Bruce! Glad your maiden worked out!
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 08:48 PM
hole digger
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A couple of pictures of the proud father and his plane
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 08:50 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
bmiller's Avatar
Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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It's freekin fast Mark! My knees were knockin!LOL

Ahh pictures from Pete! Thanks!
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Last edited by bmiller; Oct 08, 2006 at 08:58 PM. Reason: added more kudos for Pete!
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 09:02 PM
hole digger
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Bruce, just remember it has retracts!
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Old Oct 08, 2006, 09:04 PM
SoCal, Year Round Flying!
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Newport Beach, CA
Joined May 2002
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I did get a great shot of Gregg taxiing out.
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