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View Poll Results: Based on the FAI rules electronic stabilization devices
are allowed in F3J 25 14.20%
are forbidden in F3J 131 74.43%
are allowed in F3B 25 14.20%
are forbidden in F3B 132 75.00%
are allowed in F3F 28 15.91%
are forbidden in F3F 138 78.41%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Oct 10, 2013, 01:16 PM
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Gyros in F3J, F3B, and F3F

For those of you who have not been following the Gyros in F3F thread, you should take a look. Even if you only fly F3B or F3J it pertains to you!!!!

I'm setting up a poll to help our CIAM soaring sub committee delegate (Terry Edmonds) determine the communities position on the use of gyros (and ultimately any active stability control) in the soaring disciplines.

Before you vote please read this post by Roman Vojtech who reports his findings of the impact of gyro performance and the implications for RC soaring: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=253

For the F3J guys pay attention to his comments on the effect on landing.

My interpretation of the rules has been and still is that active stability control (such as that offered through gyro technology) is not permitted by the rules. Given that active stability control has been around for a long time (at least since the 1970's) via electrostatic stabilization and gyros and not used in F3B or F3J until recently (to my knowledge), why is the use of gyros only now becoming a rules interpretation issue? I can't say for sure, but I suspect it may have something to do with the recent availability from some of the major equipment manufacturers of such systems small enough to easily fit in an F3X model. Perhaps the availability of these devices has lead to creative interpretation of the rules? I'm not sure.

Regardless of the rational behind the pro-gyro interpretation of the rules, if it is up held, the pilot skills required by the current classes will be largely reduced. I also predict that all the current model designs will become obsolete as soon as someone with the right technical background designs a model tailored to active stability control. The implications of this hopefully are clear. One of the things I really like about the current (non active stability control) F3X events is that the available model technology has reached a point where anyone can buy a world class model. Even though we do not fly one design contests, the contests we do fly are primarily a test of pilot skill. I feel comfortable saying that I have not been to a contest in over 5 years that was won due to a model advantage. They have all been won by pilot skill. I propose to those that want on board sensors and active stability control along with the associated technology race that they develop a new class geared toward that. Leave the existing classes to test pilot skill.

I think I've tried to sway your vote enough

Here is the letter from Tomas Bartovsky the CIAM's RC Soaring Sub-Committee Chairman being sent to soaring sub-committee members:
Dear Friends,
At present we experience a kind of technical revolution. The electronic stabilisation devices (hereinafter gyros), which were not working well in the past, are today effective, cheap and readily available.
Many years ago, when rules for F3B, F3J and F3F classes were created, the authors could not imagine the development of electronic stabilisation devices. For this reason we have an unsatisfactory description of allowed means in the FAI Sporting Code at present.
The German proposal for general banning of gyros, which was prepared for clarification of the unhappy situation, was not accepted at the last CIAM Plenary Meeting.
We now live with the doubtful wording of the F3B, F3J and F3F rules and need an early clarification. Unfortunately decisions may be taken only by the CIAM Plenary Meeting or by the International Jury. Both decisions concerning the gyros would be too late. CIAM Plenary Meeting needs more than one year (Rule Freeze not included) for processing of a proposal. The International Jury has the right to interpret such rules which are not quite clear, but it may act only at the competition. Such decision is too late for competitors who must prepare their models and piloting skill much, much earlier.
The CIAM FAI Subcommittee has no right to take such decision, because the International Jury is independent, bound only by the FAI Sporting Code and higher FAI Documents. Still I believe that the CIAM FAI Subcommittee may prepare a recommendation which, at our present situation with the gyros, is very necessary.
Therefore please send me your opinion concerning the interpretation of the relevant paragraphs in the RC Soaring Volume of the FAI Sporting Code.

F3B
According to paragraph 5.3.1.1
(Definition of a Radio Controlled Glider: Model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device and in which lift is generated by aerodynamic forces acting on surfaces remaining fixed in flight, except control surfaces. Model aircraft with variable geometry or area must comply with the specification when the surfaces are in maximum and minimum extended mode. The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control. Any variation of geometry or area must be actuated at distance by radio control.)
the electronic stabilization devices are: allowed / forbidden

F3J
According to paragraph 5.6.1.1.
(Definition of a Radio Controlled Glider: A model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device and in which lift is generated by aerodynamic forces acting on surfaces remaining fixed. Model aircraft with variable geometry or area must comply with the specification when the surfaces are in maximum and minimum extended mode. The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control. Any variation of geometry or area must be actuated at distance by radio.)
the electronic stabilization devices are: allowed / forbidden

F3F
According to paragraph 5.8.2.
(Characteristics of Radio Controlled Slope Gliders: …Addition of ballast (which must be located internally in the model) and/or change of angles of setting are allowed. Variation of geometry or area is allowed only if it is actuated at distance by radio control…)
the electronic stabilization devices are: allowed / forbidden

Thank you in advance for your answer.
Best regards
Tomas
In addition there are rules in the general section defining a radio controlled model (I underlined the pertinent sentences):
1.1. GENERAL DEFINITION OF MODEL AIRCRAFT
A model aircraft is an aircraft of limited dimensions, with or without a propulsion device, not able to carry a human being and to be used for competition, sport or recreational purposes.
For the whole flight, a radio-controlled model aircraft shall be in the direct control of the flier, via a transmitter, and in the flier’s sight other than for momentary periods.

1.3.3. Category F3 - Radio Controlled Flight
This is a flight during which the model aircraft is manoeuvred by control surface(s) in attitude, direction and altitude by the flier on the ground using radio control.
Class: F3A - AEROBATIC POWER MODEL AIRCRAFT
F3B - MULTI-TASK GLIDERS
F3C - HELICOPTERS
F3D - PYLON RACERS
F3F - SLOPE SOARING GLIDERS
F3H - SOARING CROSS COUNTRY GLIDERS
F3J - THERMAL DURATION GLIDERS
F3K - RADIO CONTROLLED HAND LAUNCHED GLIDERS
F3M - LARGE AEROBATIC POWER MODEL AIRCRAFT
F3N - HELICOPTERS FREESTYLE
F3P - INDOOR AEROBATICS
F3Q - AERO TOW SOARING GLIDERS
F3R - PYLON RACING MODEL AIRCRAFT WITH LIMITED TECHNOLOGY
F3S - JET AEROBATIC POWER MODEL AIRCRAFT
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 01:21 PM
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I vote no on stability augmentation.

I think an unlimited technology class would be great, but I don't think electronic aids are in the spirit of piloting competition in the soaring FAI classes.
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 01:36 PM
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You'll probably have international participation in your poll. I hope it won't affect the process.
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by reto.blumer View Post
You'll probably have international participation in your poll. I hope it won't affect the process.
Not a problem. The poll is public, so we will have an idea of who voted. Regardless, when it comes to rules and rules interpretation I think it is important to have a common understanding at the international level.

Tom
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 01:49 PM
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Vote submitted.....

No room for these devices in our sport!

B
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 01:51 PM
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Selling EagleTree Guardian, 9.99 USD shipped
...
kiddin ;-)
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 02:01 PM
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Tom I concur with your opinion 100%
I can't wait to see what these devices will do outside of these contests.
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 03:28 PM
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This is a flight during which the model aircraft is manoeuvred by control surface(s) in attitude, direction and altitude by the flier on the ground using radio control.

JimmyMac in Dallas
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 03:32 PM
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Warwickshire, England
Joined Sep 2006
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you're voting on whether the rules ban them or not, not whether you think they are banned right?

for me it's clear that they fall foul of the rules because they control a model non remotely and not by the pilot.
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satinet View Post
you're voting on whether the rules ban them or not, not whether you think they are banned right?

.
Yup, that's how I see the poll.

Chris
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiesling View Post
Even though we do not fly one design contests, the contests we do fly are primarily a test of pilot skill. I feel comfortable saying that I have not been to a contest in over 5 years that was won due to a model advantage. They have all been won by pilot skill.
OK, so you think you can fly (general for all skilled pilot's)! Do you fear you will be beaten by new technology (like stabilization aids)?

I do not think so, but the competition may be harder, with setup with such devices, and also traditional setups, would it be a bad thing, that the the not top notch/skilled pilots could improve in setups, adding another fazet in the sport to make things more interesting? OK you're not the best out there with the thumbs, but sure your're a devil tuning performance with setup, and have technical knowhow excelling others giving you a advantage, it is not unfair at all benefitting from this.

Pilot skull, plus technical knowhow equals sucksess, that seems sound to me!
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 03:41 PM
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Tom you are totally right !

Obviously, some people express their wish instead of answering Tomas's question

Note: and English is not my native language

Cheers,

Pierre
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 03:47 PM
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Ok, I voted, but maybe I didn't understand correctly.

I thought the vote was going to be what you thought SHOULD be the case.

I agree that we should not allow gyros or any other autonomous devices controlling the flight, but from what I can tell, the way the FAI interprets them is that they are allowed...

So, maybe I voted wrong. Maybe this was just a poll about the interpretation of the current rules...
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satinet View Post
you're voting on whether the rules ban them or not, not whether you think they are banned right?
Yes, you are voting on whether the rules as they stand are sufficient to ban electronic stabilization. If you think they are banned, then the reason for that is likely because the rules are sufficient to ban them

This is not a vote as to whether you think they should be banned or not regardless of what the rules say.

The immediate issue is what is the correct way to deal with active electronic stabilization based on the rules as they are currently written. This is important because people need to know with certainty what will be permissible at the upcoming World Championships.

If the majority of the community agrees on an interpretation, the CIAM soaring sub committee can make a recommendation to the contest organizers and international jury's on the interpretation of the rules to be used.

Rules clarifications can still be written to ensure there is no future confusion, but these clarifications will not be implemented until after the 2015 world championships take place due to the implementation process.

Based on the definition of a Radio Controlled (not radio assisted) model in the general rules:
For the whole flight, a radio-controlled model aircraft shall be in the direct control of the flier, via a transmitter, and in the flier’s sight other than for momentary periods.

This is a flight during which the model aircraft is manoeuvred by control surface(s) in attitude, direction and altitude by the flier on the ground using radio control.
it is sufficiently clear to me that electronic stability control is not allowed. If a class were to allow it, a specific exception would have to be made (like in the rules for F3C). Any class that specifically bans electronic stability control systems are in essence just reiterating what is stated in the general section in my opinion.

Tom
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Old Oct 10, 2013, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttraver View Post
Ok, I voted, but maybe I didn't understand correctly.

I thought the vote was going to be what you thought SHOULD be the case.

I agree that we should not allow gyros or any other autonomous devices controlling the flight, but from what I can tell, the way the FAI interprets them is that they are allowed...

So, maybe I voted wrong. Maybe this was just a poll about the interpretation of the current rules...
Tim,

The vote is about how YOU interpret the rules. Not the way you have heard some in the FAI interpret the rules.

Tom
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