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Old Oct 02, 2013, 02:57 PM
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As illustration, the sentence in bold at the end of the rule 5.3.1.1

5.3.1.1. Definition of a Radio Controlled Glider
Model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device and in which lift is generated by aerodynamic forces acting on surfaces remaining fixed in flight, except control surfaces. Model aircraft with variable geometry or area must comply with the specification when the surfaces are in maximum and minimum extended mode. The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control. Any variation of geometry or area must be actuated at distance by radio control.

is to cover this:

Ralf Decker zeigt den Tele-F in Aktion (0 min 41 sec)


Pierre
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 03:00 PM
Don't ask me anything...
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Originally Posted by vespa View Post
The only airplane gyro on the market that I am aware of is the Graupner system noted by Pierre. To be fair, it will likely be available in countries *near* Germany, but not in Asia or the Americas. We have to wait for the Chinese products.
?

http://eagletreesystems.com/guardian/
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 03:03 PM
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Dualsky FC130
Eagletree guardian
Orange
OrangeRX
Spektrum AS3X Receiver
Graupner Receivers (you can also include a vario with Graupner one )
Hype
Dymond

The choice is yours !
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 03:17 PM
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Ced, there's gyros and then there's gyros. The cheap crap like Spektrum, Orange, or Futaba's "airplane gyros" are far too primitive to be used in any type of competitive aircraft. Even the Graupner system with its comprehensive PC interface software just barely seems to offer enough functionality for a simple glider -- and I'm not even sure if it really does.

Pierre, do any of those gyros work with F3X models? Not just simple camber, crow, and snap flap functionality -- but fully adjustable aileron differential and aileron-rudder mixers that can be either manually or automatically adjusted to airspeed and g-forces?

And to gang up on Tom -- the servos in your plane contain sophisticated sensors, software, and processors that continually monitor the aerodynamic loads on your ailerons, making subtle adjustments for every gust the plane encounters independently of your commands. I hereby disqualify you.
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ced_toulouse View Post
Does it mean you can't use any mixer, as you don't directly control an axes?

I'm not trying to be annoying (maybe I am, sorry about that), but I do think clarification has to be made.

Cedric
No it does not mean you can't use any mixer. Whether you use mechanical mixing or electronic mixing, when the pilot moves the stick the control surfaces move in direct response to that movement.

If a wind gust disturbs a model equipped with a gyro, the gyro automatically moves the appropriate surface to correct. This movement is not in direct control of the pilot.

I seriously don't see what is unclear about the wording in the general section. If people insist on adding a rule specifically spelling out that gyros are not allowed so be it. My concern is that if we need to specifically call out every thing that is or isn't allowed, the rule book will become unbearably tedious.

Tom
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 03:24 PM
Ricky Windsock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prondel View Post
As illustration, the sentence in bold at the end of the rule 5.3.1.1

5.3.1.1. Definition of a Radio Controlled Glider
Model aircraft which is not provided with a propulsion device and in which lift is generated by aerodynamic forces acting on surfaces remaining fixed in flight, except control surfaces. Model aircraft with variable geometry or area must comply with the specification when the surfaces are in maximum and minimum extended mode. The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control. Any variation of geometry or area must be actuated at distance by radio control.

Pierre
And you don't think that the bold above excludes an onboard device controlling the aircraft such as a gyro. The gyro IS controlling the aircraft to some extent is it not?
A gyro is obviously outside the intent of the rules for "radio controlled" so why would anyone persist with it? If it is too ambiguous and people want to game the rules than this discussion will ultimately result in the rule being made more clear and then it will definitely be outside the rules..
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 03:31 PM
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Of course I imagine they are not the same quality . But this techno is accessible to everybody now and will develop rapidly.

I guess a receiver with built in gyro is better as easier to operate and configure, and with less wiring and connectors, simpler to install.

It would be interrested to have feedbacks from the early adopters of the graupner receivers ...
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 03:41 PM
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The model aircraft must be controlled by the competitor on the ground using radio control.

This is the case for a glider equiped with a gyro. If there is no pilot on the ground to control it, the plane will crash, even with a gyro.

Once again the rules are for some of them outdated from my point of view, and should be reworded to suppress some breaches.

we can go round in circles forever. That is why we need a clear rule.
And for the F3F WC next year, we need a statement from the organiser to clarify this point, because any change proposed end of 2013, voted beginning 2014, will be applicable only in january 2015 (and maybe 2016 according to the CIAM website).

Pierre
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 04:07 PM
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I think the rules cover the use of gyros. The rules could be worded more specifically, but gyros do control the model to an extent. The rules don't say 'control a model to stop it crashing' etc. There is no point to that rule if not to cover automatic on board systems that make control 'decisions' independently if the *remote* pilot.

I don't see the debate or how the rule can be interpreted to allow gyros. Gyros clearly fall foul of the rule.

Whether you think gyros should be allowed or not is a different debate.

It might be a good idea to clarify the rules to specifically mention gyros but the counter argument is you would have to do it for everything. E.g a hypothetical f3f gps, thermal sniffing, base judging, autopilot if it were invented!
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 04:17 PM
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I think people tend to associate gyros with autopilots and thus vastly overestimate their ability. The gyros in our cars (yes, your car has gyros) do not manage our daily commute any more than a gyro in the plane will fly the course for us.

By "geometry", the rules refer to the conventional definition of planform. And by "control" they refer to the traditional piloting task of guidance and navigation. It's pretty simple and clear to me.

By the way, aeroelasticity is a common means of automatically counteracting turbulence without the need for a gyro. But since it does the same thing does that mean the FAI should require aircraft that are sufficiently rigid to prove that the pilot is actually controlling the model? What about counter-balanced controls? I could put some weights on my ailerons such that they will automatically deflect in the direction opposite that of a wind gust. Does that mean I have a gyro? Or that I'm not "controlling" the model? What about passive mechanical gyros? Or what about the fact that the servos are already making all sorts of decisions without intervention from the pilot?
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vespa View Post
The only airplane gyro on the market that I am aware of is the Graupner system noted by Pierre. To be fair, it will likely be available in countries *near* Germany, but not in Asia or the Americas. We have to wait for the Chinese products.
Vespa
this just indicates how well (mis) informed your are and spreading this

Graupner had never a own electronic production line for RC, Chargers, ESC equipment , all RC products were manufactured from Asian suppliers.


I have a gyro in a pattern electric model and when activated the model flies smoother, I doesn't need this in a glider because it takes the challenge away, allowing this in F3F competion it would be bad and not good for the 'Sport' (IMO).



Thomas
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vespa View Post
I think people tend to associate gyros with autopilots and thus vastly overestimate their ability. The gyros in our cars (yes, your car has gyros) do not manage our daily commute any more than a gyro in the plane will fly the course for us.

By "geometry", the rules refer to the conventional definition of planform. And by "control" they refer to the traditional piloting task of guidance and navigation. It's pretty simple and clear to me.

By the way, aeroelasticity is a common means of automatically counteracting turbulence without the need for a gyro. But since it does the same thing does that mean the FAI should require aircraft that are sufficiently rigid to prove that the pilot is actually controlling the model? What about counter-balanced controls? I could put some weights on my ailerons such that they will automatically deflect in the direction opposite that of a wind gust. Does that mean I have a gyro? Or that I'm not "controlling" the model? What about passive mechanical gyros? Or what about the fact that the servos are already making all sorts of decisions without intervention from the pilot?
I disagree with almost all of this and I hope the rule makers do too!
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 10:04 PM
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Knew you would Dave.
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Old Oct 02, 2013, 10:23 PM
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At this years F3b worlds there was specific mention at the team managers meeting that gyros were allowed. There were no protests lodged or complaints at this statement. This is because there is nothing in the wording of the rules that prohibits them. True!
Having played with gyros (on rudder only) in f3j models during practice, I've come to the conclusion that a model with a gyro performs like a well set up model.
Those that believe that it is a magic elixir or an unfair advantage will be disappointed. My flight times didn't change and my landing scores didn't improve. I've now reached the point where the gyro is only active in one flight phase (normal) and that will probably go soon as well.

Cheers
Mike
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Old Oct 03, 2013, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vespa View Post
Ced, there's gyros and then there's gyros. The cheap crap like Spektrum, Orange, or Futaba's "airplane gyros" are far too primitive to be used in any type of competitive aircraft. Even the Graupner system with its comprehensive PC interface software just barely seems to offer enough functionality for a simple glider -- and I'm not even sure if it really does.

Pierre, do any of those gyros work with F3X models? Not just simple camber, crow, and snap flap functionality -- but fully adjustable aileron differential and aileron-rudder mixers that can be either manually or automatically adjusted to airspeed and g-forces?

And to gang up on Tom -- the servos in your plane contain sophisticated sensors, software, and processors that continually monitor the aerodynamic loads on your ailerons, making subtle adjustments for every gust the plane encounters independently of your commands. I hereby disqualify you.
a mere futaba 431 on the ailerons already makes a big difference: I have one on my DS D60 that I tried yesterday, it is just amazing how it keeps track!
just imagine after Dsing in 50+mph, I landed the D60 only piloting the elevator, the wings remained flat on their own...

mixing isn't such a problem, I have snap flap on the D60, and it is working perfectly fine.

Cedric,
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