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Old Apr 14, 2013, 09:00 AM
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United Kingdom, England, Burnley
Joined Apr 2001
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Unethical selling on eba... that sales website !

Hello everybody...

Our "friend" and fellow RCGroups member Gordon is selling 'plans collections' on ebay - in addition to those he is selling on their own...
...compilations of plans that, it is simplied, HE has collected - and put onto CD.

That might well be the case - in that he HAS collected them - but they were provided for free - by members of this forum.

He is trying to make fast cash from selling them - which is simply unethical - and downright disgusting...!
__________________________________________________

I thought that I would look at one advert in detail:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=200899570113

The above advert is for a set of over '100+ plans'...

Quote:
this is the text
You will receive a CD containing the scanned "Original Kit Plans" in Adobe PDF format which you can take to any print shop and have them make you a set of FULL Sized Plans of your choice!!!
I wrote to him - as below:
Quote:
Dear abyssiniancats,

These plans are all available as FREE downloads at RCGroups and at Outerzone...

...perhaps you might like to include such a comment within your sales patter ?
His reply, is below.
Quote:
Dear keven64,

There is no way all these are available for free.

Gordon

- abyssiniancats
So - I have placed all the plans he lists into a folder - and discovered that his advert for a CD containing 100+ Berkeley plans is actually a breach of advertising, because there is not a total of over 100 Berkeley plans on it...!

We ALL know how some plans are uploaded a few times - with slightly different names because of the way we each 'store' them in our folders...?

Well - there are THREE copies of the 1940 Berkeley 44in span Flying Cloudin his list !

Also - he has listed plans by Veco - and plans published by model magazine(s)...

So - there is actually less than 100 different plans on the CD - and not all are Berkeley.

His list:

Quote:

1.1940_Flying_Cloud
2.Aero Commander L-26 - 33 in span
3.Aeronca 15AC Sedan (with floats) - 37.5 in span
4.Astro Hog Berkely Models
5.Banner Executive - 40in
6.Beech Staggerwing A-17 - 20 in span
7.Beech T-34 Mentor - 33 in span
8.Bandit - Mighty Midgets Series - 15 inch wingspan
9.Beech A-17
10.Bootstraps A RC - 54 in span
11.Cessna 195
12.Cessna Bird Dog 36 span
13.Chieftain - a 26 in.
14.Curtiss hawk cl
15.Custom Cavalier - 108 in span
16.A-26 Invader
17.Dragon - Mighty Midgets Series - 14 in wingspan
18.Flying Cloud - 43.5 in span
19.Forney Aircoupe
20.Grumman f8f bearcat
21.Grumman guardian
22.Hawker fury
23.Helioplane
24.Minnow.pdf"
25.Mitchel b-25 42in
26.P-38 lightning
27.Piper Comanche 3-9
28.Ramrod 250
29.Ramrod 600
30.Regulus
31.Stinson Sentinel L-5 - 33.5 in
32.Super Cloud Wakefield
33.Super whirlaway
34.Tmco bmp
35.V-16 - Mighty Midgets Series - 13.5 inch wingspan non-scale rubber model
36.Curtiss A-12
37.Boeing B-17G - 52 in span
38.Boeing P-26 - 21in span
39.Brigadier - Super Brigadier - 57 in span
40.Buccaneer - 1936 gas free flight
41.Buhl Pup - 37.5 in scale
42.Buzzard Bombshell
43.Cavalier 60 - gas free flight
44.Cessna 140 - 33 in span scale
45.Cessna 170 - 72in
46.Cessna 172 - 23in
47.Cessna 172 - 54in
48.Cessna 180 - 36 in span
49.Cessna L-19 Bird Dog - 36in
50.Craft Constellation (boat) - 26 in
51.Cloud Copter D-2 - 26 in dia rotor half-A gas free flight helicopter
52.Colonial Skimmer - 33.5 in span
53.Culver V - 29in FF
54.Curtiss A-12 Shrike - 1930s US Army attack monoplane, 33 in span
55.Curtiss F11-C2 Goshawk - 24 in span
56.Custom Privateer (McGovern's Monster) -114 in span
57.DeHavilland Beaver
58.DeHavilland DHC-2 Beaver - 48in
59.Douglas F4D-1 Skyray
60.Douglass SBD Dauntless - 31 in span
61.Fairchild 24 Rancher - 36 in span
62.Fleetwings Seabird - 1930's single engine amphibian
63.Flying Cloud Jr - 24 in span
64.Flying Cloud
65.Forney Aircoupe - 18.75 in span
66.Forney Aircoupe - 45 in span
67.Grumman F-8-F Bearcat - 25 in span
68.Grumman F11F-1 Tiger - 20.5 in span
69.Helioplane YL-24 - 38.75 inspan
70.Helioplane YL-24 - 38.75 in
71.Interstate Super Cadet - 35.5 in span
72.Jetco Navigator - Seaplane
73.Korda Conqueror - 30 in span
74.Mini Hogan 45
75.North American AJ-1 Savage - 27in
76.North American AT-6 Texan
77.North American T-2J-1 Trainer - 23 in span
78.North American T-28 Trojan - 30.5 in
79.P-51 Mustang 28ws
80.Piper Comanche - 54 in
81.J-3 Cub - 70 in span
82.Piper Super Cruiser (with floats) - 35.5 in span
83.Piper Tri-Pacer - 18.25 in span
84.Piper Tri-Pacer - 44 in span
85.Piranha - 74 in span
86.Privateer - 36 in span
87.Privateer Super 15 - 60 in span
88.Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - 41in
89.Republic P-47N Thunderbolt - 33 in span
90.Ryan Navion Super 260 - 1955 68 in span
91.Sinbad Jr. - 30 in span
92.Sinbad the Sailor - 50in FF Duration Glider,
93.Sioux - 1949 half-A gas sport free flight
94.Stinson Reliant SR-9C - 42 in span
95.Stinson Sentinel L-5 - 33.5 in span
96.Stinson Voyager 150 - 34 in span "
97.Super Brigadier - 57 in span - old time cabin RC
98.Temco TT 150 Pinto - 30 in span Jet
99.Veco Squaw - 38.5 in span
100.Waco Cabin - 35 in span
101.Waco Cabin - 52.5 in span
102.Zilch X -
103.Zilch, Pee Wee - 32 in span
104.Zilch, Super Duper - 52 in span

BERKELEY made some of the coolest kits!!!

Yeah - but they did not make a Veco Squaw or Sioux !

See my picture.
I collected together in one folder all of the plans in his list.
There are only two .pdf files in the list that I do not have in my computers, and I am looking for them.

This is the reply I plan to send - in a few hours or so.
Quote:

Hello Gordon,

Yes there is a way all those are available for free.

I have all those in your list as .pdf files in my computer... and have downloaded tham all - for free from the RCGroups website.
...and as I can - so you can - and you have done !

Everybody can... and we know that you are a member at RCGroups...

Note that your CD-list contains several duplicates of models by Berkeley - and plans that were sold by Veco or published by magazines and are nothing at all to do with Berkeley.
Your list states wingspans that are slightly different to actual plan sizes - but they are the same plans.

Your CD as advertised has actually less than 100 different plans on it - and not all are Berkeley !
A breach of advertising standards - I should think.
Buyers will NOT be getting what they pay for.
That's without consideration of the ruse you are playing upon them - because those plans are ALL available for free...

I have saved EVERY plan uploaded to the RCGroups website and the other sites - just as you have been doing.
I have well over 100 plans in my Berkeley folder - no duplicates - and none by other manufacturers

I am saving them so I can put them all online - to SHARE with everyone - I have my own server.

You are nothing short of a con artist...!
You have downloaded all those .pdf files - and are shaming yourself by trying to make 'a fast buck' - and you are not even doing it correctly.

Keven.
I am then going to write a letter to ebay themselves...

Keven .
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 09:12 AM
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United Kingdom, England, Burnley
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I believe that I have over 100 Berkeley plans - I am checking...
...I have 6 PC's and two external drives to look in - as well as the server - which is still 'in preparation'.

I definitely have more than those Gordon has listed.

Keven.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 10:05 AM
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I need to get that organized...
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 10:12 AM
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ddruck's Avatar
Canada, ON, Pickering
Joined Nov 2006
687 Posts
Well Kevin, as I read this, it does not seem totally unethical and nowhere near disgusting, as you say, he is not claiming this are his designs, or that he personally scanned them, he COMPILED them and that is all he is charging for. Which takes time, he put them on cd, which takes time and money and he is charging $12 for that service. It is not Fraud or anything. If someone is willing to pay for compiling this stuff for him, why not. If you want to do all this for free, ok that is your prerogative. I see nothing out of the ordinary, it is a charge for a service, nothing he said is miss advertizing. In today's world people are willing to pay to save time and many never heard of RCG. I am sure you or your kids buy compilations of music cd's from the 50's and you pay for them, they are free to download but there are thousands of people that buy them, it is just business, you should rethink this, he can charge you for harassment or something.
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Last edited by ddruck; Apr 14, 2013 at 10:44 AM.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 11:29 AM
WMD
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Bradford, UK
Joined Jan 2010
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For what it's worth... me, I really don't mind so much. So somebody is making copies of free stuff, then burning it all onto CD, then selling it? I think that's pretty much ok with me. I still have all my plans. I still have all the same stuff that I had this morning. I still have the same money in my pocket that I had before I read this. Nothing has gone missing, or been lost, or got broken, or stolen.

Just my 2c.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 01:19 PM
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Atlanta, GA USA
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Though I haven't seen any of the Berkeley plans he has on his list, I would dare say a number of them are probably mine as I restored a lot of the Berkeley plans and posted them on RC Groups. I do have a certain style I recognize. Anyway, weather he sells them or gives them away doesn't matter to me. I did the work to preserve the old plans for everyone who enjoys them and would like to build from them. To my way of thinking, the more distribution they have, the better. I did this as a way of giving back to the hobby that has meant so much to me over the years.

Planeman
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 02:38 PM
WMD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddruck View Post
...he can charge you for harassment or something.
No. That will not happen. Clearly.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 07:11 PM
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United Kingdom, England, Burnley
Joined Apr 2001
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Quote:
planeman said
Though I haven't seen any of the Berkeley plans he has on his list, I would dare say a number of them are probably mine as I restored a lot of the Berkeley plans and posted them on RC Groups.
Yes Rufus - I believe that some are yours...

Well - if that is the general concensus of opinion - I shall leave it at that...
...not that I am in any way worried about being "charged for harassment".
That IS never going to happen...

I shall in future keep MY 2p to myself !

Keven.

That's KEVEN - keven64 - see ?
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 09:59 PM
AMA 667982 KG7NKY
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Tucson, AZ, USA
Joined Sep 2000
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Let me just say that "Gordon" is one of the reasons I quit posting my scans. I hope your reading this Gordon unfortunately, I can't call you what I think of you.
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