HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Feb 24, 2013, 06:13 AM
Registered User
Joined Jun 2012
73 Posts
Discussion
A big gas trainer or right into the aerobatics ?

I've been flying my alpha 40 for quite sometime and can do aerobatics pretty nicely aswell as nice 3D manuvers on my simulator .
Since that I've been thinking of my next step-up plane , but I can't make up my mind . Now I'm a big fan of aerobatic/3D planes and giant scale and since my last visit to my local hobby shop I've seen a big 50cc gas trainer and a kyosho aerobatic plane that is pretty much as big as my alpha and both caught my attention .
I want the aerobatic plane to progress more into 3D and aerobatic but at the same time would like to get the giant scale trainer with flaps just to get me started in the giant scale and gasser planes .
Which one of the two do you guys suggest ?

I'm leaning more towards the aerobatic plane since I already have a trainer and would like to progress towards more complex aerobatic manuvers .
But again , I would like to hear your suggestions .
xzodiackxs is offline Find More Posts by xzodiackxs
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Feb 24, 2013, 06:51 AM
Registered User
AA5BY's Avatar
East Texas
Joined Aug 2007
1,000 Posts
One more time... I'm going to plug going with a stick for the second plane. They are simple and thus maximize learning to fly with less problems with the plane. They open the window to windy flying as well so as to avoid being grounded for too much wind.

You can have both worlds you desire, go with a 20cc gas engine on a large stick to learn most aerobatics (excluding knife edge) and at the same time make your entry to gas and larger planes.
AA5BY is online now Find More Posts by AA5BY
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Big Red
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 07:40 AM
Registered User
rjstrickjr's Avatar
United States, NC, Faison
Joined Jan 2011
682 Posts
A 1/4 scale Cub would be a great second plane. You can put a DLE 20 or 30 in it. If you go with the 30cc it will do some awsome manuvers. I have one and it is a fun flying plane. Wide open its a handfull but come on down to cruz speed and you have yourself a great lazy flyer.
rjstrickjr is offline Find More Posts by rjstrickjr
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 08:59 AM
WCB
Registered User
NC
Joined Aug 2005
1,032 Posts
When your plane smacks the ground on the sim you mash a button and you get a new plane. It doesn't work that way at the field. It's going to get real expensive learning to 3D on a 50cc gasser.
If that's the direction you're headed do yourself a favor and start out with a profile like a Mojo kit or similar. It hurts less to destroy a $200 plane and trust me you are going to bust several of them while learning.
WCB is offline Find More Posts by WCB
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 09:31 AM
Registered User
earlwb's Avatar
USA, TX, Grapevine
Joined Dec 2008
12,504 Posts
I would go with a smaller aerobatic plane at first, just to rack up more experience and flight time.

The big gasser is certainly a possibility. But it is quite a bit more expensive should you inadvertently crash it. You might want to factor in how much it all costs before you go with it at this time.

Usually a RC'er goes with a trainer, then a sport high wing plane of some sort, then to a low wing sport plane and on to a more advanced plane for aerobatics, etc. The giant scale size planes sort of come along after that.

You might want to go with a big plane that has the gas engine open so you can adjust it and fiddle with it as needed, before going on to something much more nice looking. Sometimes getting a gas engine to work OK for a newbie can be a huge challenge in itself. I would suggest a major brand name gas engine for your first gasser as the brand name engines have service and support and do not need to be fixed or repaired or modified to work right out of the box,
earlwb is offline Find More Posts by earlwb
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: My homemade Hexacopter build
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:28 AM
Registered User
Tucson
Joined Nov 2009
918 Posts
I agree with Earl. Anything big (50cc) is expensive, and big planes require landing skills that are not apparent on simulators (you can't just plop it onto the ground, because planes heavier than about 5 pounds can easily bend gear on a less than gently touch down).

Getting a big plane into the air, and surviving a maiden flight, is not a measure of advanced flying skill. (Look up 50cc maiden flights on youtube, and observe how many of these pilots tried to pull 3D maneuvers within 10 feet of the ground, before they had trimmed out the plane and tried these moves at 400 feet. Some almost took out onlookers.)

Forget the status of big planes, and go for real flying skills. Scale planes are much harder to fly, so avoid them, unless they are stable aerobatic models (Sukhoi, Yak, Extra).

Cut your teeth in aerobatics by trying a 50-70 size cheaper and lighter aerobatic plane, even an electric where you can focus on the flying skills, without a really expensive engine on the front.

The hardest aerobatic flying skills are flying level, flying in a straight line, and flying a well proportioned loop. This comes as a shock to new fliers. Learning how to fly these forms precisely, is the entrance into aerobatic flying.

It's a free country. Try to fly whatever you want. But those who jump into flying big, gas, scale planes before learning precision flying skills, may never learn precision flying skills.
wuest3141 is online now Find More Posts by wuest3141
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 01:46 PM
Registered User
United States, SD
Joined Aug 2010
1,057 Posts
Go get a Four Star 120 with a gasser engine big enough to put into a 3D plane down the road, then when it comes time to get the 3D plane, put the 4* stuff into the 3D. Just my .02
Kyler1 is offline Find More Posts by Kyler1
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 04:39 PM
Registered User
DGrant's Avatar
United States, CA, Clovis
Joined Mar 2004
3,171 Posts
I would imagine most successful long time flyer/builders have stepped up the ladder, rather then trying to jump up several steps at one time. I know I did, It was a progression... of which everyone is different.. and only you can make that determination...

There is alot to be said for gaining experience before getting into giant-scale aerobats.. and although I applaude your accomplishment with your Alpha40(nice planes..).. I'd have to encourage a next step not quite to giants...(I'm saying 50cc and up is giants..)... There alot of great sport planes..that are quite worthy of excellent aerobatics.. I'm thinking Hangar9 Showtime90.. for sure the already mentioned FourStar120.. Theres the Stik series of great fun flyers.. The Tensor50 bipes.. just a ton of nice ones.. and not nearly as expensive as a 50cc'r.. but in any case.. one still has to lay down some "bones" for these things.. I'm just throwing out stuff for consideration here too though... in any case.. keep flying.. Have a great week.
DGrant is online now Find More Posts by DGrant
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 06:22 PM
Registered User
jbess's Avatar
United States, CT, Waterbury
Joined May 2008
30 Posts
SIG Somethin' Extra is a great second plane. I went from a Hobbico Avistar to a Somethin' Extra and couldn't of been happier. Will pretty much do what you want it to, go where you point it, roll rate can be from mild to extreme. You name it, great 40 size plane!
jbess is offline Find More Posts by jbess
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2013, 10:07 PM
Who Dat!
GeetarJoe's Avatar
United States, LA, New Orleans
Joined Sep 2011
650 Posts
man there is some crazy advice on this thread.

here's the deal from someone who has done both. a stick is a good flying plane. no doubt. you can do some aerobatics with them, but honestly if you are looking to do 3D, real 3D and not look like your plane is having a spaz attack, you need to go big. here are a few reasons why:

1) bigger flies better. this is no joke. it's not about "status" or being the biggest swinger at the field. the bottom line is, you can shrink the plane but you cant shrink the air. Big "3D style" planes have lower wing loadings than their smaller (<30cc) counterparts. this translates to having more power to pull through maneuvers and to pull yourself out of trouble. they also can fly slower and land at a walking pace (some at a SLOW walk.) this is advantageous to you as a beginning 3D pilot because you are going to get yourself into some crazy attitudes while attempting maneuvers. a big plane with lots of power will feel like it flies "lighter" than a smaller aerobatic plane.

2) big planes (generally) can and do fly slower. this may not sound like an advantage but it is. for example, lets say one day you are trying to practice blenders. you climb for altitude, tip it over, start rolling.. everything is great.. go into the snap... good.. then flip out into the flat spi....WHOOPS.. you jerked the stick a little too hard and rolled out of the maneuver 25 feet off the deck and it takes you a half a second to register if youre inverted or upright. in a half a second a .40 sized squirrely-bird can be in a smoking heap on the ground. the slower maneuvering speed + higher power to weight ratio of a bigger plane can buy you that half a second window that keeps you flying and not dragging out the garbage bag.

3) they are more likely to run on good old pump gas. $3-$4 a gallon vs $20-$30 a gallon when youre burning 16+ oz at a time. no explanation needed.

4) bigger plane = bigger control surfaces = better control at really slow speeds. for example: I can steer my 50cc Yak out of trouble even when the plane is just about dead stopped in the air just because of the sheer amount of prop wash that is blowing over the control surfaces. Lets say I enter a knife edge spin and dont properly modulate my ailerons. now im left flipping sideways with no forward speed. big control surfaces force the plane over so that I can use gravity to my advantage. the "floaty" nature of the big wing allows me to fly out instead of bomb out.

5) cost. this may sound crazy but hear me out. lets say you buy a .50 sized stick, outfit it with engine, servos, rx, etc.. you plunk down $500. now in a month or two you outfly the stick and you look for something else.. so you move to a .90 sized aerobat because youre still leery about the "cost of big planes." engine, servos, etc... $700. now you find that it flies "good" but you still want something bigger. so you go for the 120 size now.. woo.. $1000 later youre in the air.. but guess what.. by the time you put out that $2200 you could have built yourself a 50cc aerobatic and already been throwing the thing all over the sky.

6) finally, you dont need to go to 50cc. while its true that 50-100cc is kind of the sweet spot for big planes, there are MANY 30cc's out there that fly just as good albeit a little faster, and for 50-75% of the price. take a look at the 30cc slipstream or EG mx2. its inexpensive, well built, and you can fly it on a cheap DLE30. i have one. its one of my favorites.

ok.. yes when you crash them they are expensive.. but what isnt? just dont crash it.

dont be afraid of big planes. the truth is if you outfit them well (good servos, reliable radio and engine) and keep the build light, they really fly like big foamies.
GeetarJoe is offline Find More Posts by GeetarJoe
Last edited by GeetarJoe; Feb 24, 2013 at 10:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 25, 2013, 11:44 AM
Registered User
United States, WI, Slinger
Joined Mar 2006
489 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeetarJoe View Post
man there is some crazy advice on this thread.
You're absolutely right, there is a lot of crazy advice here. Like telling someone to go from a 40 size trainer to a big gas engine model! Sure bigger flies better, they also make bigger splats when they crash. "Just don't crash", are you kidding!

I had a DL50 powered 1/3 scale Sig Spacewalker which flew great. But I would never ever recommend a guy go from an Alpha 40 to that airplane in one shot.

Get yourslf a good low wing trainer as some have suggested and work your way up. Personally I went from a GP Trainer 20 (fully symmetrical wing) to a GP Super Sportster 40 and it was a good choice. I'm not sure if the Super Sportster is available any more but there are plenty of alternatives as suggested.


Mike
MikeCr is offline Find More Posts by MikeCr
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 25, 2013, 12:15 PM
team sleprock
whiskykid's Avatar
United States, WA, Port Angeles
Joined Dec 2009
3,267 Posts
ok! I will toss in my 2 cents!

I have been flying on and off since the mid 80's! I started out with a sig kadet jr with a magnum 25! this wasn't the first plane I built, the first plane I built was a sterling olympic chalenger!(low wing pattern style ship)not so good for a trainer!
so I got me the KJ and flew the snot out of it "3 channel" then when I got bored with it, I swapped out the gear inta the chalenger!(devine dung) man was that a handfull, even in my mid 20's that seemed quick! but it wasn't too long before lieraly flying the wings off that plane,( sterling quality balsa don't ya know)

ok fast forward a coupla life times, and I got my first big plane! "78"ws H9 EXTRA 260! rcg50" wasn't 30 secounds inta the first flight, and I am saying WOW! why did I wait so long! my settings are what I would call agressive IMAC, and she flys smoother then any trainer I have ever flown! as geeter noted, she is a floater, and will land slower then my 91fx powered GP extra 300s!

"just cuase you can, don't mean you hafta"
that said, I don't know if I would go all out and start with a 50cc plane, when a good 30cc will fly better then a .60 size plane, and won't require the space and commitment of a large gasser!

I would get a 30cc plane, some middle of the road metal geard servos, set it up with some mild throws( what I like ta call IMAC/not 3D) and go from there!

just my opinion!
whiskykid is online now Find More Posts by whiskykid
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: heli's
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 25, 2013, 12:44 PM
Registered User
earlwb's Avatar
USA, TX, Grapevine
Joined Dec 2008
12,504 Posts
Well, I just see it happen all the time. Someone gets some time on a trainer, uses a flight simulator, then gets a high performance plane and promptly crashes it.

But on the other hand I have seen some guys come out and after some flight time on the trainers and flight simulators, they are almost pros in how they are flying around with planes or helicopters even.

So I guess it depends on the person and how well they get than hand and eye coordination going.
earlwb is offline Find More Posts by earlwb
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: My homemade Hexacopter build
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 25, 2013, 01:17 PM
Registered User
AA5BY's Avatar
East Texas
Joined Aug 2007
1,000 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlwb View Post
Well, I just see it happen all the time. Someone gets some time on a trainer, uses a flight simulator, then gets a high performance plane and promptly crashes it.

But on the other hand I have seen some guys come out and after some flight time on the trainers and flight simulators, they are almost pros in how they are flying around with planes or helicopters even.

So I guess it depends on the person and how well they get than hand and eye coordination going.
Yep!
AA5BY is online now Find More Posts by AA5BY
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Big Red
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 25, 2013, 03:12 PM
Who Dat!
GeetarJoe's Avatar
United States, LA, New Orleans
Joined Sep 2011
650 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCr View Post
You're absolutely right, there is a lot of crazy advice here. Like telling someone to go from a 40 size trainer to a big gas engine model! Sure bigger flies better, they also make bigger splats when they crash. "Just don't crash", are you kidding!

I had a DL50 powered 1/3 scale Sig Spacewalker which flew great. But I would never ever recommend a guy go from an Alpha 40 to that airplane in one shot.

Get yourslf a good low wing trainer as some have suggested and work your way up. Personally I went from a GP Trainer 20 (fully symmetrical wing) to a GP Super Sportster 40 and it was a good choice. I'm not sure if the Super Sportster is available any more but there are plenty of alternatives as suggested.


Mike
No, im not kidding. just dont crash the thing. Its R/C flying, not brain surgery. For some people its easier than others, granted. Its also granted that big planes do fly better and are easier to fly slowly. I could go into it in depth and prove to you mathematically why that is the case, but that is way beyond the scope of this thread. lets just keep it to the above mentioned phrase: "you can shrink the plane but you cant shrink the air." bigger planes are easier to fly.

It is also true that aerobatic planes are more challenging to fly because they are so responsive. this is true regardless of size. however, adding diminutive size to the mix exacerbates the problem by making the plane have to fly faster to generate the same lift as well as being more easily buffeted and blown off course by wind. It is a common misconception that smaller planes are easier to fly. this is not true.

at any rate, to each their own. if the OP thinks he can tackle a big plane then I say more power to them. what I am saying is that there is no reason to be scared of big aerobatic planes because of the size.. it is in fact this size that makes them so comparatively docile over their smaller counterparts.

I do agree with you that a super sportster is a good second plane. it flies well and is maneuverable. the giant super sportster is an even better choice as it is relatively large, stable, and still maneuverable.. and it flies well on a DLE 30. something to consider. There are lots of people that like the spacewalker. its a good looking plane, but personally I think flying it is a friggen snooze fest. its one of the most boring planes I have ever flown. second only to the Alpha, which compared to a 50cc or even a 30cc yak or likewise, flies like a brick.

in summation, to the OP, if you can competently and confidently fly an alpha (and by this I mean you are always in control of the plane and flying actively not in a haphazard and reactionary way) you CAN fly a big aerobatic plane. the learning curve is there but it is pretty small and easily surmountable.
GeetarJoe is offline Find More Posts by GeetarJoe
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question What is available for starting really big gas engines? Sackie Giant Scale Airplanes 95 Mar 02, 2013 07:37 AM
Discussion Right into the fishtank AnthonysQuad Mini Helis 4 Feb 15, 2013 06:41 AM
Wanted Want to get into fpv, is 2.4ghz the right tx for me ? Harry200sx FPV Equipment (FS/W) 19 Jan 25, 2013 11:54 AM
Question Looking into building something, but what is too big? MaydayMayday Electric Heli Talk 77 Jan 12, 2013 12:16 AM
Discussion Best Aileron Trainer For Someone Who Wants To Get Into Aerobatics/3D? rcguy1234 Electric Plane Talk 25 May 03, 2012 04:55 AM