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Old Jan 13, 2004, 11:10 PM
More Combat Please!
Wind_of_Change's Avatar
Utah
Joined Dec 2003
7,854 Posts
RandyK1,

Hmm, not sure if it's worth taking that risk after all this work building the Unicorn. I'll have to try it out on the spare foam and see what happens I guess. If it doesn't work, I'll have to use tape. Got plenty of that.

Wonder if I could use a hot air gun instead of the iron with better results on the coats. You don't think even the Super 90 would be strong enough to stick on this Monokote? There's gotta be a less risky solution.

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Old Jan 14, 2004, 12:01 AM
Fiberglass dont bounce???
RandyK1's Avatar
Zion, Il.
Joined Sep 2002
2,408 Posts
I have seen great looking tape jobs, I just think that covering makes the wing much stronger, also slicker (airflow wise). Could you return the Monocote and Ultracote and get Oracover or Econocote? I have seen threads where people have done wings with Ultracote, but thay had done alot of covering jobs before that. Atleast see if you can return the Monocote. As far as the Super 90 goes, I have never used it (yet) I still have some 77 left. You could try, if it dont work you could always strip the covering off and go with tape. BTW, it's your fault that I have to do all this extra work, I was happy with my Unicorn untill I saw your Projeti ...R...
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 07:38 AM
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ohio, youngstown
Joined Sep 2001
329 Posts
Sorry guy's I forgot to get some pics last night of my XE2. I have gone the glow wire route on heli's in the past and always used these high intensity lights and one or 2 glow sticks on the skids as backups. on my wing I was very weight sensitive!! and I wanted my setup to be removable and not effect airflow, so I used the highintensity lights with a switch mounted to turn them on. and then I just plug in the glow sticks on the wingtips and I am ready. daytime you can't tell anything is out of the ordinary. I will get some pics this week, you can pick up the lights on ebay for about $10-15 and a pack of 100+glowsticks for about $10-15 as well.
Jon
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 10:32 AM
Unicorn Pilot
ReikiMaster's Avatar
Niagara Falls Int, New York, United States
Joined Aug 2003
581 Posts
Monokote = not great for foam
Econokote = not so bad
Ultracote is my first choice for foam (so far). Why? Because the glue activates at a VERY predictable temperature that is well below the initial shrink temperature. Because once you hit the initial shrink temp, it will not shrink more at the same temp.

Set your iron temperature for ultracote? Just turn your iron up slowly. Wait a few minutes between adjustments. When you get a drop of water to boil on your iron you are right about where you want to be for glue activation. Mark that spot on your iron. It should be about 220 degrees if memory serves me. Initial shrink happens about 20 degrees hotter. Again you slowly turn up the heat, waiting a few minutes between adjustments. When the film discolors (depends on color but normally it will darken just a little) you've reached initial shrink. The color change will be noticeable but just barely so.

Ultracote seems to work curved surfaces better than either econokote or monokote. Monokote glue activation temp is too high for me to be comfortable with although I know others have probably used it successfully. I used it a lot on my fuel planes but I was bonding to wood... not foam.
Econokote is definitely a lower temperature glue activation but I can't say I'm happy with quality control on it. Sometimes it does one thing, sometimes it does another. It's a cheap substitute for Monokote and quite frankly my experience with it has not been favorable. If you're patient... it works (and better than monokote)

There are also folks that like Solite which I haven't tried yet, but it looks like a higher quality film. I've also worked only on EPP foam so.. I'm no expert on covering foam with film. I've used lots of different films though on the gas fleet (all sold now) and translating that experience to foamies... I'd have to rate tehm like this:

Ultracote
Econokote
Monokote

My *understanding* about Solite is that it would fit in there at the top with Ultracote, but again... I have no experience applying it. Just seen stuff first-hand with it already applied.
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 10:39 AM
More Combat Please!
Wind_of_Change's Avatar
Utah
Joined Dec 2003
7,854 Posts
ReikiMaster,

Thanks for the coating info. I've got Ultracote for the bottom, and flourescent Monokote for the top.

I'll ask you the same question. Do you think that this film could be adequately held to a plane's surface simply with a strong spray adhesive like Super 77 or Super 90? I don't feel a need to do any shrinking because the wing is perfect as it is and I don't want deformation. And I don't care what glue holds it to the surface, so activating the films glue doesn't matter to me. I just want a nice looking, seamless covering.

RandyK1 says that the film won't stick to 77. Perhaps there are other spray adhesives that could bond to the coting film?

TIA

Todd
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 10:53 AM
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Dsam's Avatar
GA
Joined Jun 2002
77 Posts
Ultracote
Econokote
Monokote............. I used Ultracote on my unicorn I used the 77 glue then ironed down the covering the temp of the iron was 220. DEG. I wouldn't try just 77 or 90 glue the ultracote works very good, I wouldn't use a heat gun to put the covering on with but you can use the heat gun to take out the wrinkles after a hard landing/impact and the covering looks good as new. BTW this was my second time using shrinkable covering so you can say im a green horn still. here is a pic of my wing with the ultracote http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...31#post1637931
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Last edited by Dsam; Jan 14, 2004 at 10:55 AM.
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 11:10 AM
More Combat Please!
Wind_of_Change's Avatar
Utah
Joined Dec 2003
7,854 Posts
Dsam,

Are you Billdad's brother? Nice planes you guys built.

Problem is I want flourescent covering on top. And none of the LHSs carry flourescents in Ultracote, only the Monokote had flourescent colors. Likewise, none of them carry Oracover or any of the other films. I'd have to mail order I guess.

And you're saying that the glue activation range of Monokote is OVER the foams melt range?

Todd
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 11:17 AM
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Dsam's Avatar
GA
Joined Jun 2002
77 Posts
Wind_of_Change Yes billdad1 is my brother, I wouldn't use Monokote because you have to use high temp to get it to stick, so you might melt the foam.
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 11:39 AM
Landings are not optional
DeuceTrinal's Avatar
Van Nuys, CA
Joined Sep 2003
1,805 Posts
Just FYI on the Unicorn - if you leave some foam exposed or have transparent coverings, you can run the glo wire or LED's actually IN the foam, and all the foam around it will glow. Very cool, and multiplies/disperses the light the way a lampshade does.
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 11:54 AM
Fiberglass dont bounce???
RandyK1's Avatar
Zion, Il.
Joined Sep 2002
2,408 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Wind_of_Change




RandyK1 says that the film won't stick to 77. Perhaps there are other spray adhesives that could bond to the coting film?



The film will stick to the glue, just not that well, or for very long. As for using the Ultracote, that what I get for talking to the LHS guy And I had the Ultracote in my hand with my first coise of colors. The LHS owner didnt just say that the Ultracote wouldnt work so well on foam, he said "NO, NO, NO, NO THAT STUFF WONT WORK ON FOAM, you want Econocote for foam and its cheaper also" I didnt care about the money, I just wanted a great looking wing. I have to go to the LHS today to pick up some brushes, I think I wall have a little talk with the owner about coverings ...R...
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 01:03 PM
More Combat Please!
Wind_of_Change's Avatar
Utah
Joined Dec 2003
7,854 Posts
RandyK1,

Same exact same thing happened to me. One LHS guy (who I'm really coming to dislike) talked me out of buying Ultracote. So I went to a competing LHS and said "Your competitor told me I couldn't use this stuff on my wing, so can I buy it here?" He said, "Yeah, it'll work, just be careful! The Monokote is riskier, but if you're willing to do several test runs first to get the EXACT temperature, and you're using an accurate iron, you should get it to work." So I bought the 21st century iron with the tight tolerances and the ultracote/monokote combination. He even gave me a big discount because he knew I was venturing into the unknown, and he would learn from my experience.

It's all about the individual sales person and his personal experience/knowledge. And whether or not he's inherently a dweeb or not. I tell you, I always get crappy information out of guys who have lost their passion for the hobby and are in it just to try and make a living (like the first guy I mentioned.)

Of course, the best source of info is here with you guys building the SAME PLANE with the SAME MATERIALS at the SAME TIME.

So thanks guys! I appreciate your time helping me out with this project.

I'll do my tests and report back with the results.
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 01:09 PM
Unicorn Pilot
ReikiMaster's Avatar
Niagara Falls Int, New York, United States
Joined Aug 2003
581 Posts
You'll spray the whole thing with Super77 and apply your fiber tape reinforcement. You'll be doing yourself a favor before covering if you scuff up the shiny surface of your fiber tape. It has a coating on it so adhesive doesn't stick well (so they can put it on a roll!). If you just dull it with some fine sandpaper that should be all you need. Obviously you don't want to be real aggressive and wreck the tape. Just scuff it up real good. Another light coat of 77 right before covering if it's been a while or just whack the tape if you're doing most of this in one session. Yes you'll spray more than just the tape, but....no biggie... the idea is to get some 77 on the scuffed up tape. Start applying your film. If you wait a few minutes for the 77 to "tacky up" the film will stick but you can actually still lift it if you need to. Get it as smooth as you can. The not-yet-heat-activated adhesive on the film will stick to the 77 pretty well, but this is definitely not the way to leave it. You still want to activate the film's adhesive and for that you need heat.

Remember... film will stick to film beautifully. So if you overlap at leading and trailing edges, you're sticking film to film! If the film shrinks even SLIGHTLY after you've got a wing completely wrapped and leading and trailing edges are film to film... how much do you REALLY have to stick what's in between? Film spans rather large open bays between wing ribs in the bigger fuel planes.

DSam and billdad can jump in here any time and correct anything I may have said incorrectly or to add their thoughts. I've seen billdad's wings. They've obviously acheived some great results.



Quote:
Originally posted by Wind_of_Change
ReikiMaster,

Thanks for the coating info. I've got Ultracote for the bottom, and flourescent Monokote for the top.

I'll ask you the same question. Do you think that this film could be adequately held to a plane's surface simply with a strong spray adhesive like Super 77 or Super 90? I don't feel a need to do any shrinking because the wing is perfect as it is and I don't want deformation. And I don't care what glue holds it to the surface, so activating the films glue doesn't matter to me. I just want a nice looking, seamless covering.

RandyK1 says that the film won't stick to 77. Perhaps there are other spray adhesives that could bond to the coting film?

TIA

Todd
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Old Jan 14, 2004, 10:39 PM
TOO MUCH FUN!!
billdad1's Avatar
USA, SC, CAMPOBELLO
Joined Jun 2002
283 Posts
Covering

ReikiMaster,
Thanks for the compliment!! Your covering process is basically the same as mine.
I am by no means an authority................. I am learning as I go and I get a lot of ideas from everyone who generously share their knowledge on this forum.
Here is a picture of the Unicorn I am working on tonight. The building is almost as much fun as the flying.
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Old Jan 15, 2004, 11:10 AM
Your flyer is down...
Airhole's Avatar
Joined Jan 2004
101 Posts
Sorry if I am asking an already covered topic... but what do you guys think the real weight difference between an Ultracote-covered Uni, and a tape covered Unicorn is?

Billdad1's planes are just so dang beautiful!! and I would love to do something like that. But as we know from this thread we are planning to put a lot of extra junk into these planes for night-flying... does the Ultracote add enough weight to be an issue?
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Last edited by Airhole; Jan 15, 2004 at 12:51 PM.
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Old Jan 15, 2004, 12:51 PM
TOO MUCH FUN!!
billdad1's Avatar
USA, SC, CAMPOBELLO
Joined Jun 2002
283 Posts
Weight

Airhole,
I weighed the Hot Pink one in the picture above before and after and the additional weight was exactly 2 oz. I am not sure, but my guess is that a good tape job would weigh very close to the same weight. Depending on how much overlap you have on each row of tape, it might even be more. ?????
Maybe someone could weigh a Unicorn before and after and let us know how much the tape added to the overall weight.
After I covered a Combat Wing XE with Ultra Coat I have not gone back to tape. There is nothing wrong with the tape but I like the strength the iron on covering adds.
By the way, when I am covering with Ultra Coat, I feel comfortable using less strapping tape and that would also help with any weight issue.

Bill

Here is a picture of my first Ultra Coat wing. (Combat Wing XE)
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