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Old Feb 24, 2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fly20 View Post
Jed, I made the firewall mod to my 4*40 and it worked great but thanks to your explantion I can see why standoffs would be the way to go here. Thanks for taking the time to post your build. Really enjoying it. Gary
Gary

I'm glad you're both enjoying & participating in it. Please don't hesitate to offer up any thoughts, ideas or opinions - my building experience is limited; two prior Sig EP's (Kadet LT-25 & Kadet Sr) & two gliders which became motorized (Gentle Lady & Big Bird).

Jed
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 08:29 AM
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Long Valley, NJ, USA
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Jed,

Nice job so far on the V60 - especially your clean and strong motor mount solution. Please indulge me:

What motor did you install? How many cells and prop size? Did you get the extended landing gear option?

My father built two V60s (O.S. 61 glow, not electric), one with the full span wing and one clipped. They both fly wonderfully, and I happen to like the full span better as you can land it a little slower. I expect to build one for electric eventually.

Keep the photos coming, and best wishes for your wife's speedy recovery.

Thanks,

Paul
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 12:17 PM
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Paul,

The motor I installed came from Heads Up RC; it's a Power Up 46 Sport, which I've used in a couple of other A/C. If you're not familiar with HURC, they are an online seller of EP only stuff based in FL. Jeff Anderson, the owner, gives very good service; ships usually the same day you order & only charges $2 for standard shipping & $5 for expedited (USPS). He's bench tested this motor with a 4 cell Lipo using a 13X6.5E prop & it produces 96oz of thrust & 800 watts. That is the combo I plan to use on the V60.

With this prop I did not get the extended landing gear but with anything bigger, I think it might be needed. I fly off of a paved runway but grass might also be more of a problem.

What you have to say about the clipped wing version of the V60 is also what Bruce told me about it. I originally was looking for a 40 size plane that I knew would work with the 46 motor (I already have 4 cell Lipos & didn't want to have to get any bigger & more expensive ones). I asked him about eliminating the last bay off of each wing tip, giving you a 66" wing, & he said it flew faster, rolled quicker but also landed & stalled at a higher speed. His preference was to use the bigger wing - he just likes the way it flies better. So even though I have not seen a V60 in the air, that convinced me!

Thanks for the well wishes.

Jed
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 02:18 PM
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Hi Jed
Now, if you'd copied all the wing bits bar the last bay on each side, you could have had a regular wing and a clipwing.

Yeah, sure, bet you'd have loved the extra build time

I flew my Four Star 40 for several years on its regular wing, then clipped it when it ended up needing 'a little covering repair'. That reduced it from 60" to about 53" IIRC. It flew for quite a few more years after that. As Bruce puts it, it's down to you. The long wing is more laid back, but I found my clipwing 4* to be easier to land. Sometimes if brought in a little too fast, the long wing would develop a strong dislike to stopping flying and I'd watch it sail past a couple of feet off the runway.

If you find yourself with a need for a longer UC, I've had several alloy units from 'TnT Landing Gear'. You can download a custom gear form from their website, send it back for a quote before you make a decision involving spending and, last one I had, the price was reasonable and the quality very good.

Love the way you painted the 'engine bay'. A bunch better looking than nekked wood and white plastic standoffs!

D
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 06:28 PM
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Hello Dereck – I did manage to think ahead a bit & got a second set of plans for the V60, so after I beat up the initial ones, I’ll have a complete reference set for repairs, historical interest, etc. But it didn’t occur to me to copy the wing bits as you say for a clip wing version. I wonder if Bruce would sell me a wing only kit for that purpose? Great idea – I’ll have to explore it with him. But right now, extra building time is not what I want!

Hopefully my prior Sig experience with floating will help me get the V60 down when trying to do that. Took some flying lessons when I first got into the hobby four years ago, & my instructor drilled me on what he called “the blue sky rule” - - “if you don’t see blue sky under the airplane, you better be trying to land.” I also am fortunate enough to have a club here in the CA desert that has a nice long asphalt runway – about 650’ of it, with about 50' of added overruns. And the desert scape all around it actually sits lower than the field (also slightly below sea level); so you can really drag out an approach if needed.

And many thanks for the tip on the TnT Landing Gear site – they really have a wide selection of A/C they already build for. Didn’t see any of Bruce’s but imagine if I copied the plans they could fabricate one slightly longer.

Agree that the all black motor space is much more attractive than the bare wood & white nylon spacers. The HURC black motor, X-mount & prop adapter really almost make it mandatory! But the before & after photos make the case for it, & appreciate your kind words. Hope the Chicago winter lets you fly that 4*20 pretty soon! Cheers,

Jed
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 09:49 PM
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Hi Jed
That floaty landing thing was mostly down to the pilot's inadequate handling of the throttle on approach. Never heard of anyone who didn't like their Four Star and bet the V60 is at least as good, if not better. Heck, my 4*40 withstood me messing with it and was a good flier to the end. By when, about all that wasn't messed with some was Bruce's wing section...

Your field sounds nice. Hereabouts, the county surrounding Chicago lays on around eight dedicated RC flying sites in the parks dept. Which sounds real good until you get your county property tax bill I learned to fly on 3000 feet of 150 foot wide tarmac, which was real good but we could only have it when the big guys weren't flying off it. Being in the RAF had certain nice perks

Keep on gluing wood, we want to see this Venture up and flying

D
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 10:56 PM
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Dereck (or anyone else out there with V60 time) – Your mention of the Venture actually up & flying got me thinking about how you do that, & specifically how well behaved it is likely to be on the ground. Based on either your familiarity with it or your extensive BT designed 4*40, do you have any sense of that? For example, my Sig LT-25 is a bit squirrelly on take off until the rudder becomes effective (admit to more than one ground loop when first flying it) & even on landing when the speed drops off it can do a quick 180 if you don’t catch it in time.

I admit to not asking Bruce about this to avoid disclosing my fairly limited tail dragger time. Even tried mounting a Futaba 401 gyro in the Sig using heading hold function to keep it straight (kind of worked but more trouble & expense than it was worth). The only 2 reviews I have found on the V60 make no mention of this issue so I suspect like all things Bruce Tharpe, that long fuse design & wide spaced UC (as you folks from across the pond term it – hey, my Dad was born in Derby so I can get away with it) should keep it from getting too wild & woolly on take off. I fly with a friend who has an Sig Four Star 60 EP (which I know Bruce didn’t design but was adapted from his earlier designs of the 40 & 120) & it doesn’t seem to exhibit any bad behavior on take off’s but it sure bounces a fair amount when he lands it (he flies about as well as I do).

In my youth I flew as an Air Force navigator & was stationed at Hickam AFB in Honolulu. Living on base we had the original runways closed down so our flight lines were connected with HNL International for air ops. We probably had an RC club there & also over at Ford Island (I know one is there today), but I was into sailing back then so didn’t have that privilege you had. Now I work at a local air museum & we have a Spitfire (Griffin version), so that is as close to real RAF stuff as I ever get. Cheers,

Jed
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 11:38 PM
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Ground handling is one of the things I'm most proud of with the V60. The main reason for that two-piece landing gear is to get the wheels back where they should be. Keeps bouncing to a minimum and makes ground handling about as easy as can be with conventional gear. If there was a trainer just for taildragger handling, it might be the V60. Can't take too much credit because in general, low-wing taildraggers are almost always less twitchy than high-wing designs. My high-wing Flyin' King takes a very light touch on the rudder for takeoff. The V60 drives around almost like a tri-gear.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 12:46 AM
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Now I am embarrassed: first for admitting to the V60 designer that I might not be the most qualified guy out there intending to fly his special creation; & second for casting any disparaging thoughts about his V60 design! Woe is me.... But in true Bruce Tharpe form, he answers not only the question but sheds some light on a distinction between high & low wing A/C that I didn't even know existed.

All of my prior experience with tail draggers is high wing (Telemaster, LT-25, Fun Cub, Mentor, & Sig Rascal ) & my low wing is with trikes (PZ T-28, Funster & Advance 25E) - beside a number of high wing trikes. But I now will eliminate this worry from my very small list of things to be concerned about with this exceptional airplane. And again, this list has nothing to do with the finished product but only what I might screw up before getting there!

Jed
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 08:59 AM
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HI Jed
Okay, I'm biased - have had three trikes since starting in RC in 1979. The rest were guess what?

When you get to fly your V60, if you can, start by making initial take offs into wind if possible. If you're stuck with a defined runway heading, go for as little wind as you can for test flying if its more than a few degrees off runway heading.

You'll eventually be looking for a smooth rudder input, if any, to counter torque on take off - no furiously waving the rudder around as she careens down the runway. My dear old Four Star had no difficulties with even 90 degree crosswinds, even when I'd worked her up to a geared inrunner on a 15 x 10 prop that did nearly 7000RPM flat out. The longer UC to clear that fan meant a real step-up in ground angle, but it didn't do much harm to her ground handling.

Not that she was on the ground for long

Having a Spitfire to work on at a museum sounds really cool. In my RAF days, I once got on the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Lancaster for a 'ground tour' - a squadron buddy was a volunteer flight engineer on it - but never even got close enough to touch their Spitfire and Hurricane.

D
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 12:01 PM
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Dereck - Very helpful suggestions & I will certainly try to follow them. With that motor/prop combo on the 4*40, there must have been some torque to manage. One of the things that concerned me a bit was the absence of any right thrust in the V60 plans & almost considered adding some. But Bruce knows how to design planes & I decided if he thought it was needed, he would have put it in like he did with the downthrust.

And we're fortunate with all this desert land out here, we were able to line up our runway with the prevailing NNW winds. But unfortunately we do get wind. I remember my first trip to the desert & was checking in to spend the night. A sign at check-in was titled "Answers To Ten Most Asked Questions". No. 1 on the list was "Yes, it is always this windy here". And spring time is when we get a bit more.

Well, back to work. Took the left wing panel off the board last night & want to try to get it ready for joining its' mate in the next few days.

Jed

By the way, the last time our Spitfire flew was in the 2001 movie "Pearl Harbor" with Ben Affleck (our P-40 also flew in that movie). The studio put strobe lights at the ends of the gun barrels to simulate firing, & we still have the strobes. We get lots of interesting questions about why lights on gun barrels! But I bet you know why it has a 5 bladed wooden prop.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 01:19 PM
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Yes, well, Chicago isn't called the Windy City entirely because of the vast number of local politicians downtown...

My club's flying site was designed by the local county government, which means the prevailing winds, and most other winds, are largely at odds with the direction of the runway - okay, it's a grass patch - take-off area. At least, a few years ago, the local IAms moved the patch from out in the middle of largely nowhere to adjacent to a local park area parking lot. Before that, according to long timers, it was a long hike with your 'stuff' from car park to pits area.

Okay, I have to give in - why does your Spitfire have five wooden blades? Not that I'm an expert (Ex = Has Been. Spurt = Drip under Pressure ) but I thought by time they got to five blades, they were all metal, variable pitch and other fancy widgetry.

My dear old 4* escalated throughout her eleven years. Initially, she had 20 1700mA nicads - around 42 ounces of battery weight - delivering some 600W into a 12 x 8. Many years and several motors later, a Hacker B50 with 6.7:1 epicyclic gearing was doing 650W into that 15 x 10 off 16 NiMh cells of a huge 3000mA and around ten ounces lighter. By then, she'd do a big knife edged loop from level flight and back to level. So it's likely your V60E will offer you all the sports aerobatic capabilities you can push yourself to, and not bite the hand that built her either.

D
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 04:37 PM
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Verizon FiOS router just gave up the ghost, so no computer Internet until they replace it. Told I will get new router on brown truck this Thur. Sorry for build log interruption. Sent from iPhone.

Jed
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 07:53 AM
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Hi Jed,

Thanks for the power setup info. Can't wait to see how it works in the V60. I would definitely do as Dereck suggests and temporarily place all the parts into the airframe before finishing it all up to sort out the balance.

I've just recently bought items from Heads Up RC - I agree that they are a good outfit.

Thanks,

Paul
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Old Feb 28, 2013, 01:45 AM
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Venture 60 Build Thread Continued

Sorry for this slight delay in reporting on my V60 build, but my Verizon FiOS router abruptly failed 2 days ago & I just now received & got their replacement unit up & working. Hopefully this will not be a portent of things to come – between the high tech Gods & the aviation Gods, I don’t know which ones to fear the most. I’ll hope for the latter being the most beneficent – a computer crash is usually much less harmful than an airplane crash any day.

To return where we left off, I don’t know what I was thinking about when I said I had reached the point in the plans where there was nothing left to do on the fuse until both wing panels were joined & ready to be mated to the fuse, & as a result I would probably be moving on to work on the tail-feathers. That would be true if I wasn’t electrocuting this V60, & certain modifications would therefore be required for me to make. So it occurred that this was the right place in the overall plan of mods for the creation of a hatch in the top of the nose section of the fuse, particularly since work on the left wing panel also was still lagging a bit behind.

I have probably thought more about the alternatives for this hatch than anything else involved in this build. Previous hatch work on past EP conversions has been pretty straightforward, involving box shaped fuse sections & the ease of cutting a hatch into either a top or a bottom panel – no rounded or sloping surfaces like on the V60, & certainly no hacking into a major airframe section that is right abaft of the firewall in the nose of the plane! But I heeded the wise counsel of folks like Dereck & others who urged me to build something that would not weaken an important area where the hatch fits into the fuse, & not to try cutting into the build after completion of final work on the nose.

So I determined to place the hatch in the open space between the fuse sides, behind the firewall (F-1) & in front of former F-2. Probably you don't need to be a rocket scientist, or maybe not even an aero engineer, to pick this spot (sorry, now I've probably offended Bruce again & he still hasn't even seen how I don't deserve to own or much yet attempt to fly his plane!). This opening is 6 ¼” by 3 ¼” & there is the additional center cut-out area in F-2 that will allow the Lipo battery to be located anywhere between the firewall all the way to about 3” to 4” behind F-2 – or a slightly more than 10” of fore & aft positioning range for my 5 ½” long battery (I’m going to add a supporting platform behind F-2 to brace the Lipo if it needs to be extended behind F-2 for CG reasons). Before glueing them in the fuse, I had used the top rounded sections of F-1 & F-2 to create a pattern or form for the end plates in the hatch (a couple of the earlier photos of the fuse work show these parts that I made for this purpose taped to F-2), & then hand designed a third one for a center brace. The side pieces are thin hardwood strips, & the hatch is covered with balsa sheeting. Triangle stock is also used to brace the corners of the hatch.

Probably rather than trying to describe the hatch I created, it would be easier & clearer if I just posted some photos of it; please see them below (don't know where all the blue came from in these pics - not in my photos). The hatch fits flush between F-1 & F-2 but the topside overhang on the sides was left a bit wider to allow it to be sanded down & shaped to fit flush with the fuse sides after completing the nose covering in front of & behind the hatch location. (N.B. - the real challenge, I suspect, will be cutting this one piece of intended rounded nose sheeting into two pieces to fit perfectly in front of & behind this hatch, i.e., between both ends of the hatch & their respective positions at the cowl around the engine/motor compartment & the curved top of the instrument panel.) But all in all, it came out fairly well & is both a tight fit & should serve to add a bit of strength to this section of the fuse. The plan is to use rare earth magnets in the front & rear to hold the hatch in place. But that is down the road. So perhaps now, on to the tail-feathers!
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