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Old Feb 20, 2013, 05:23 PM
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Venture 60 Build Thread Continued

After really messing up showing a photo with a wing servo looking like it was going to be mounted 90 degrees to where it should be, I will try to be more watchful about what I either say or show photos of in my V60 build log. Having never done this before, it is kind of a stream of consciousness most of the time, & at other times an admission of incompetence or a plea for help or advice (even if it really doesn’t look or sound like that).

So I will sheepishly continue with just a few photos of the in-progress & then the completed sheeting work on the lower wing panel. And at this point according to the plans, it is time to set this wing panel aside & then build the left wing panel to the same state. Then work progresses to partially build the fuselage. Reason for this is to then join these two wing panels so that they can be fitted into the partially complete fuselage in order to do things like complete the work on the dowels that need to be installed in the wings & the holes that need to be made in the fuse to hold the leading edge of the wing in place; as well as to install the blocks in the fuselage that the wing bolts will need to be screwed into to hold the trailing edge of the wing in place. Not to mention also installing a landing gear plate into the fuselage that needs to be fitted against the wing panel.

I’m obviously getting way ahead of myself, but the idea occurs to me that if I proceed to build the left wing panel & then restart work on this build log, it may be weeks from now at my build pace & no one will really be very interested any more. So I am going to try to multi task, which I used to do a lot of before I retired, but really not so much anymore. I am going to work on the wing panel while giving build reports on the fuselage as well. Hopefully, with any luck at all I might actually end up with the completion of left wing panel and an available fuse at about the same time in order to finish the build in sequence.

So here are the last right wing panel photos, & now it is off to the races: wing/fuse/wing/fuse/wing/fuse/ ? ? ? ? ? Where to start ? ? ? ? ?
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 08:59 AM
Visitor from Reality
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HI Jed
Though I don't count myself as a 'Pro' by a long way, I've been into photography almost as long as RC and still recall one of the earliest and best pieces of photographic advice I ever read, to this day.

Forget the exact wording, but it went pretty much like 'throw away any photos you think might cause you embarrassement, before anyone else sees them.' That dates to when 24 photos were a serious financial deal - now we can take that many of one thing and barely fill the odd corner of the camera's memory.

I try and stick to it myself, still. Even if the shots I post hereabouts are taken on an old DLSR that is so ancient, its images download direct to hereabouts without my having to downsize them or take them at lower resolution.

Good shot of the masking tape holding bits down, BTW - masking tape various is good to have in the toolbox for all sorts of jobs, plus you can often buy it on the household budget and thus save aeromodelling money

I try to build all the bits more or less together. Stick something into the wing, go build the tailfeathers while the wing glue dries.

Mostly I need to get a move on, as the weather could change for the better.

D
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 05:07 PM
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Hello Dereck - good advice on the photos & thank heavens for digital. I'm using both my iPhone & a fairly new Fuji X100 digital with a fixed 35mm lens (just like I started out using 50 years ago with slide film).

But let me ask you, & anybody else who has any thoughts about it, a question. At lunch yesterday with my flying partner we got talking about my V60 build progress, & I mentioned how I was planning on getting it all done up to covering, then putting it together to do some weight & balance testing with most everything else in place. Then one of us suggested that maybe without the covering on, there would be a slight difference in the weight distribution after covering - not much but a few ounces maybe. The other opined that maybe adding the covering is really no different than if the airframe by itself were really just that much more overall in weight, since the covering is equally distributed over the entire airframe, so maybe the CG remains unaffected. I won't tell you what I said until I hear what you have to say about this. What do you think?

Jed
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Old Feb 21, 2013, 07:42 PM
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Jed
You've built plenty of models, so you know your way around the building process. The worst position to get in is looking at a pretty much complete and covered model that's got no radio in it, no battery access and the CG is way aft.

When doing the initial check - dropping the expensive bits and battery into a close to complete but uncovered model is to get an idea of how it's going. Minus covering and, possibly, stuff like tailwheel unit, control horns and clevises, the CG is likely to be some forward, so if it's already a lot backward, you're better placed to do something about it.

Covering a model is, I reckon, inclined to move the CG aft some. The stuff weighs and there's more of it aft of the CG than ahead on a conventional layout model. Monokote will do aft shift more than SoLite, for an extreme case.

Hope that helps

D
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 12:19 AM
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Dereck - most certainly it helps & I really appreciate that folks like you & many others on this site take the time to watch over the works that guys like me are doing. Only wish I had got back into this hobby before I retired but sure glad I am in it with conviction now.

And can also say that this left wing panel is coming together pretty well also, & like you point out, it does give you the ability to do a bit here & a bit there instead of just waiting for the next step. So hope also to have some fuse progress to report very soon.

Jed
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 08:14 AM
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Just make sure you build a right hand wing panel next...

And don't ask other builders if they've ever built two wings or fuselage sides of the same side...
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 05:49 PM
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D, Been There /Done That.!!!!!!!
sP
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 07:22 PM
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Venture 60 Build Thread Continued

After double checking to make sure I really am now building the left wing panel & that the other one I built ready for joining is the right one, I took a wing-building break & turned my attention to the rest of the plane. Page 1 of the manual has you start with the fuselage, so that is where I began. And right off the bat when you start doing what the plans call for in building the fuselage, you are confronted with the fact that you need to have your engine or electric power conversion plans not only made, but actually be in possession of both the engine or motor & mount you plan on using for this purpose. The very first step in working on the fuse is to set up the firewall for mounting, as stated in the manual & plans, either a .60 -.65 size two stroke engine, or a .65 - .80 four stroke engine.

But even before purchasing my V60 kit (they weren’t even available yet) I had some lengthy email discussions with Bruce about my plan to use an electric motor that was rated between a .46 - .55 equivalent. The one I had in mind was a Heads Up Power Up 46 Sport. I use this same motor on my Sig Kadet Sr EP & it has more than enough power. Jeff Anderson at HURC lists the motor with an APC 13X6.5E prop as producing 96 ozs. of thrust & 800 watts. With the expected weight to be around 7 lbs. or less, this should give more than 100 watts per pound & seems about right for my style of relaxed flying & easy aerobatics. Bruce responded that with the big wing on the V60, this motor should fly it with no problems, & also be able to fly it like I was looking for it to do.

Moving on, I already had the motor & the X mount that comes with it, so just needed to pick up some various sizes of nylon spacers, 2” 8-32 bolts & blind nuts. The plans call for 6-32 hardware but I upsized it because of the approximate one inch plus of motor stand off I expected to have. Positioning the mount along the thrust line that you have to draw on the firewall was the first thing to do, then adding the necessary ventilation holes in the firewall came next - & in the process I really came to appreciate just what a beefy firewall you get with the V60!

Next step, curiously enough, has you jump to the landing gear plate & mark, then drill 3/16” holes in it that match up with the 2-section set of the gear struts that you line up according to the plans. Then pound the 4 supplied 6-32 blind nuts in place. Here I also decided to deviate from the manual’s standard use of metal 6-32 bolts to attach the landing gear. While at the AMA convention in Ontario in January, I had picked up a supply of 6-32 nylon bolts. I test fitted the gear struts to the LG plate, & everything lined up perfectly. Also really liked the look of the swept back appearance of the gear & noticed that it was much thicker aluminum than I expected to see on this plane. If you follow the manual & plans, there will be no problem, but I could see the possibility of getting a bit confused about which way is up or forward with this gear plate, but the plans are very clear on this point.

Finally back to the fuse with glueing a reinforcement piece on the lower half of the second former (F-2) that will be where ¼” holes are made for the pegs on the leading edge of the wing. Then draw some lines on the cockpit floor, which doesn’t get installed at this point, for placement of the instrument panel & cockpit headrest, which you do right off of the plans – no problem here so far. Then I came to a halt. The kit comes with 2 lengthy pieces of pre-shaped 3/32” balsa sheeting that needs to be glued together along a center seam in order to construct what will become an extended & rounded balsa nose cover. I, however, plan on putting a hatch somewhere in the middle of the nose (closer to the firewall) for my battery access; so I set this aside until I will be dealing with this hatch – some time after the fuse has been built to the point of being able to construct a hatch but before the fuse is so complete that I would have to cut up the fuse to create one.

So I jumped into glueing the fuselage doublers to the fuse sides, & this proved much easier & more certain than past kits, as their respective shapes & notches for formers make it very clear. Bruce has you use either slow CA or 5 minute epoxy, but I used my fresh bottles of 20 minute epoxy (my 5 minute was kind of old). He includes a nice clear picture to keep you from making 2 left or 2 right sides, instead of the requisite one of each! After glueing in the tailpost assembly to one side, then the fun really begins. The instructions, step by step, guide you through the process of assembling the sides with the formers in place, & the rear fuse bottom along with the cockpit floor, which you then hold together with rubber bands or tape (no glue at this point). After carefully making certain everything is in place & lined up correctly (the fuse viewed from overhead shouldn’t look like a banana or a skinny orange, but an airplane), then you proceed with medium CA to glue all of the fuse joints, corners, straight sections & finally, the other side of the tailpost. I’ll add a shameless plug for one of Bruce’s options: I was in need of some more glue products & one thing he offers is a quite adequate supply of all the CA’s you need, with kicker, micro tips & an extra long tip from Handibond, which he recommends for the V60. I hadn’t used their glues before but am most impressed & pleased with their adhesion & ease of use.

Sorry for this long post but once you start with this first phase of the fuse, there is kind of no stopping, so I thought I should get this info online up to the first real break in building the fuse. And I’ve got just a few shots showing the firewall work I did right before I first rubber-banded the fuse pieces all together; along with a shot of the fuse’s expected battery compartment behind the firewall; & a full length of what the fuse looks like right before the glue gets applied. The battery compartment photo shows that I’m planning on using the fuel tank floor for the Lipo platform, and I also drilled some ventilation holes in it (it’s just sitting in place to see how it will work, but is not part of what you do with the fuse at this point). And since I had the drill ready, I went ahead and drilled ventilation holes in the front fuselage bottom panel, which will be located right below the battery compartment. Also posted a picture of that. But got so carried away with enjoying the break from the wing, I forgot to take more pictures!
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 08:28 AM
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lovely line to that fuselage - it'll be a good looker
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 10:16 AM
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Go Jed, Go! Looking really good so far, excellent pics, very thorough execution.

Thought I would chime in on the CG discussion. I'm all for checking it before covering, and I agree with Derek that covering will shift the balance point aft. My guess is not much, maybe 1/8", 1/4" at most. Will be interesting to see the exact shift if you do a pure before and after CG check.

The main point that I wanted to make is that the plans show a conservative balance range located on the main spar. That is definitely where you want to start for your first flights. Later on, you may want to try moving it aft of the spar, no more than 1/4" at a time. I have settled on a balance point that is about 1/2" aft of the main spar, mainly because it lets me do flatter flat spins (which I love) without being too pitch sensitive. So you might want to keep this in mind and make your battery or equipment positions adjustable to allow some experimentation with balance point later on...
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:00 PM
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Jed, Great job so far. I have this kit enroute [thanks Bruce]. I'm also going electric. Instead of using motor mount standoffs does it look like you'd be able to relocate the firewall foward instead? gary
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 04:14 PM
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HI Bruce - great to see this puppy back out of the pound! Give me a holla when you do the V20 - no room in life for big models these days, for sure There's a 4*20E not far from where I type that was lucky to get built without a fair amount of cribbing

Firewall move vs spacers? An electrocution of a kit like this one, it's probably easier and stronger to use the slimey firewall and some spacers. My favourites are as many Liteply discs as are needed, on account of they're easily made, cheap and I don't have to find them, order them and wait around for delivery...

A custom electric power model will have the firewall up back of a typical outrunner these days. Why mess with spacers when placing the firewall properly will do the job better, lighter and cheaper?

D
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 05:35 PM
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Bruce - many thanks for the kind words & very helpful advice about the CG placement. However right now I actually try to avoid either flat or inverted spins! And I vote with Dereck on a possible V20 when time permits. The V60 really needs a little brother.

Gary - you can kind of see in my photos that the fuse in the nose area really starts to taper down & I calculate I would've had to move the firewall forward about 1 1/4" to maybe 1 1/2". Also you would lose the benefit Bruce provides in really locking the fuse sides perfectly positioned & parallel with the slotted joining of the FW to the sides. Not to mention also having a FW that is tank-like strong. Finally, my motor is almost all black & I am painting the inner wood & nylon spacers black also, so it really should look OK in the open nose.

Jed
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 07:48 AM
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Jed, I made the firewall mod to my 4*40 and it worked great but thanks to your explantion I can see why standoffs would be the way to go here. Thanks for taking the time to post your build. Really enjoying it. Gary
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 01:55 PM
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Venture 60 Build Thread Continued

So to answer the questions about how I actually went about mounting an electric motor on the standard firewall, here is how I decided to do it with hardware store standard nylon standoffs. Measuring the motor I determined I needed 1 ¼” of standoffs to reach the same place that a nitro engine prop back plate would need to be located according to the plans. I have to admit at this point I have used Great Planes metal motor mounts & a couple of other very comparable ones, & yes, I do like their really solid construction, but don’t much care for how often they really just don’t fit quite right in the nose area spacing (particularly if under a cowl), & then I have had to struggle with modifying a couple of these metal mounts to make them work. But using these spacers instead just made it so easy to install the motor. I think I will certainly consider them again if & when any model is as rock solid as is the V60.

Then like I said I went about painting the entire inner nose area where the motor would be situated a flat black color like the can on the motor. I also painted the nylon standoffs the same flat black color. What a difference it really made; so now the motor, standoffs & the entire interior space all look like they were really designed that way. One of the real added benefits of electric power is that you can enjoy the front end design of your plane without having to mess it up to be able to attach a not-very-stylish nitro engine & muffler system. Not to mention avoidance of slimy substances all over the airframe every time you fly it!

Bruce provides some very useful, as he terms it, “Tools ‘N Stuff”, consisting of heavy cut out material that you use for setting the dihedral angle of the wing panel’s root ribs, & setting the angles of the cockpit headrest & instrument panels. And at this point one is used to glue in the headrest to the cockpit floor at the called-for rearward angle. Then he employs probably the heaviest stock of balsa stringers to build the turtledeck I have ever used – five pieces of 3/16” by ¼” balsa stock that you glue into the perfectly created notches in the formers located between the headrest & the tail former F-6. If you got the fuse set up right, these just fall into place, straight as an arrow. After the glue dries, you trim off the edges of these stringers even with the edges of the headrest & tail former F-6, & do some sanding of the tailpost to insure that it is flush with the edges of the fuse sides. About at this point my flying partner dropped by to see this V60 he had heard me talking about, & all he could say was “WOW – look at those turtledeck stringers!”

Here are the obligatory photos depicting what is described above. Sorry that I haven’t figured out how guys like Dereck manage to add helpful text along with their photos, but maybe by the time I’m through taking pics, I’ll get it worked out. And it also looks like I’m just about to the point in the manual & plans that the next steps involve working on mounting the wing to the fuselage. I still don’t have a “wing” – singular form – but have one completed wing panel & now one part completed wing panel – consisting of not quite two halves of a “wing”. So I will probably move to doing some work on the tail feathers in order to have something on which to continue reporting. Looks like I am going to have to ramp up my pace of work on that left wing panel as well if I am going to avoid any hiatus in this build thread. Unfortunately right now I also have a sick spouse (bronchitis, which you’re not supposed to get in our warm CA desert), so I’m playing Dr. Kildare (not the “young” version but the “older” one, for those of you whose memories go back that far) when I’m not working on the V60.
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