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Old Feb 05, 2013, 02:27 PM
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Atomic Skull's Avatar
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Advice on first nitro build

Well I posted this on Helifreak and the only response I got was "buy a Trex" which is not the information I need so I'm reposting this here.

Need advice on my first nitro build (haven't ordered anything just in the research stage right now)

One of these airframes.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...opter_Kit.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...opter_Kit.html

This engine

http://www.hobbypartz.com/72p-s52h.html

This gyro (been using this on my 500 and it's worked great)

http://www.robirdusa.com/Robird-Gyros/G31-Gyro

These cyclics (I've read a few places that they make good cyclics for 600 size helicopters)

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...-Digital-Servo

This rudder servo. (I've been been using the standard voltage version on my 500 with great results since last year.

http://www.ltair.com/index.php?route...product_id=178

In the case of the AHF I'd be using an RJX head, if I go with the JS I'll buy the FBL parts and recycle the grips from the flybar head.


This is intended to be used for sport flying and mild aerobatics not stick banging 3D.

Would the engine I have selected be able to run 80% methanol / 20% oil with no nitro?

At this point I'm strongly leaning toward the TZ V2, I've read nothing but good things about it. The deciding factor will be whether Amain will be carrying the parts in the future (I sent them email about this) They don't have the kits anymore and a lot of the parts are now on sale so I'm not sure if they are dumping it or not.

Anyone know of a decent reasonably priced .90 engine? If I could find such I might go with the TZ V2 .90 instead of the .50
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 03:28 PM
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Denver, CO
Joined Dec 2005
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I don't know, some links broken.
Most engines can run no nitro. It's an issue of how to make them run on it. Mostly an issue of compression, and glow plug changes. Some motors have head shims that can compensate enough. Others might need some work.
All my RJX heads have been great.
I think the "get a trex" comes from the amount of used parts out there. I personally don't like the Trex nitro's. I would rather have an RJX if not crashing, or a Raptor if crashing often.
Reasonably priced on a 90, is probably a used one. I don't know of any reasonably priced new.
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 04:36 PM
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Junction City, KS
Joined Sep 2004
676 Posts
Agree with the TRex statement, most of it comes from the popularity and availability of parts. Very close second as already mentioned is a Raptor. I have both. I also have a stripped down frame for a TZ Frenzy 50, that I've been thinking about either selling or finally putting together. Haven't made my mind yet, and nobody has come forward with a reasonable offer.

Where do you live that you are looking into 0% nitro? Or is there a reason for looking into 0% nitro that I do not know of? Engine tuning becomes so much easier when you have some nitro in the fuel. Of course I like to have excess power, so I typically run 30% nitro. Some budget minded people that I fly with prefer to use 10 and 12% nitro. NONE of them fly 0% unless they are in competition.

Rafael
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafael23cc View Post
Agree with the TRex statement, most of it comes from the popularity and availability of parts. Very close second as already mentioned is a Raptor. I have both. I also have a stripped down frame for a TZ Frenzy 50, that I've been thinking about either selling or finally putting together. Haven't made my mind yet, and nobody has come forward with a reasonable offer.

Where do you live that you are looking into 0% nitro? Or is there a reason for looking into 0% nitro that I do not know of? Engine tuning becomes so much easier when you have some nitro in the fuel. Of course I like to have excess power, so I typically run 30% nitro. Some budget minded people that I fly with prefer to use 10 and 12% nitro. NONE of them fly 0% unless they are in competition.

Rafael
Fixed the links

Lower nitro = longer flight times but less power from what I have read. Also nitromethane is expensive and methanol is cheap.

Someone on Helifreak mentioned the Vision 50, RC Heliworkz has this machine for $260. The company that makes it has contact information for Italy and China. Apparently the head can be converted between Flybar and FBL just my removing the flybarmechanics and replacing the mixing arms on the grips with ball links. The flybar head doesn't have a washout base or lower mixing arms, the swash and flybar links connect directly to mixing arms on the grips. Phasing is maintained by a pair of plastic brackets on the mainshaft.






Pics of the FBL configuration.




Really liking this machine. I'm going to do some research and if it turns out to be a good helicopter I think I'll go with it.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 03:37 AM
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Advice on first nitro build Reply to Thread

Assemble your nitro car. Read over your manual fully once. Make note of all screw sizes and types and organize them in small bowls or hardware trays to help keep track of them. When working on screwing parts down, take extra care not to overtighten or force them, as stripping of the threads can occur. Rub the threads of your screws along a bar of soap to help with tight fits and to prevent stripping. When screwing together metal components or nuts, use liquid thread lock. This will prevent them from loosening over long runs and heavy vibration from the nitro engine.
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 04:57 PM
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Rafael23cc's Avatar
Junction City, KS
Joined Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Skull View Post
Lower nitro = longer flight times but less power from what I have read. Also nitromethane is expensive and methanol is cheap.
If you think price is worth more than aggravation, go ahead. You will quickly learn one of two things. You will learn to properly and accurately tune a nitro engine, or you will learn to heed advise from people that have been doing this way longer than you. Do you want to fly? Or do you want to experiment?

On the other hand, if you are worrying about nitro price, this hobby might not be for you.

Sorry if I was harsh. But the reality cannot be covered with a blindfold.

Rafael
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 05:03 PM
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Junction City, KS
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Originally Posted by charles007 View Post
Assemble your nitro car.
where do you get that he's assembling a car?

Quote:
Make note of all screw sizes and types and organize them in small bowls or hardware trays to help keep track of them.
Most helicopter manufacturers package the necessary hardware in bags corresponding to a specific step on the manual. When you are done with the step, you should be out of hardware and have a completed sub-assembly in front of you.

Quote:
Rub the threads of your screws along a bar of soap to help with tight fits and to prevent stripping.
I've never heard this and I DO NOT recommend this to be done. In actuality, some people use CA glue to screw into plastic, and thread locker when screwing into metal.

Quote:
When screwing together metal components or nuts, use liquid thread lock. This will prevent them from loosening over long runs and heavy vibration from the nitro engine.
Yep, good advise, as is the part about being careful to not overthighten to avoid stripping.

Rafael
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafael23cc View Post
If you think price is worth more than aggravation, go ahead. You will quickly learn one of two things. You will learn to properly and accurately tune a nitro engine, or you will learn to heed advise from people that have been doing this way longer than you. Do you want to fly? Or do you want to experiment?

On the other hand, if you are worrying about nitro price, this hobby might not be for you.

Sorry if I was harsh. But the reality cannot be covered with a blindfold.

Rafael
Low nitro is fine, I just don't need 30% for the kind of flying I do.

I'm thinking now that I'm just going to get a Raptor and be done with it.

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...-Carbon-Blades

Probably wait till later this year or early next year and stay with my 500 for now if I go this route.
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 06:39 AM
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Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafael23cc View Post
If you think price is worth more than aggravation, go ahead. You will quickly learn one of two things. You will learn to properly and accurately tune a nitro engine, or you will learn to heed advise from people that have been doing this way longer than you. Do you want to fly? Or do you want to experiment?

On the other hand, if you are worrying about nitro price, this hobby might not be for you.

Sorry if I was harsh. But the reality cannot be covered with a blindfold.

Rafael
Or get an electronic ignition system. You can get rid of ALL Nitro without fear of heat issues, without any tuning issues (you still need to tune but it is VERY easy).
The ignition system will typically compensate for at least 10% Nitro, AND it will save you even MORE fuel. (the fuel saving from fitting a CDI is approx equal to changing from 25% Nitro to 0% Nitro, but with only half the power loss)

Fitting the CDI needs to be done as you see fit for your particular helicopter.
Ignition timing has to be set at 34 degrees.
Fuel: just use 0% Nitro, and either 20% Castor, or 15% full synthetic
(or whatever your taste might be in lubricants, don't want to start a discussion here, fact is, you can reduce oil content by in cases as much as 1/4 compared to glow ignition)

Tuning is easy: Give your engine one or two tankfulls to adjust to the new lubricant content, gradually leaning out a one or two clicks at a time. After that, turn in the main needle until the power drops in a punch-out. Back out main needle 2 clicks and never touch it again.
Close midrange needle until power drops in hoover. Open it slightly and never touch it again.
Close idle needle until engine idles smoothly. leave it at that.

No need to do acceleration tests: the engine WILL accelerate immediately when you open the throttle, regardless of fat or lean idle (too rich, it dies, too lean, it dies, but over a wide range, the engine will pick up regardless of mixture)

You will see, that despite much lower oil content, and much leaner carb setting, you can still touch the backplate for 10 seconds immediately after a hoover.
You can (if you can reach it) even touch the heatsink for several seconds after that hoover.

When running 30% Nitro with glowplugs, for example an RCExl system will have paid for itself within 2 or 3 gallons of 0% Nitro fuel....
It will have paid for itself after approx 10~15 broken glowplugs too.....
At least, that is my experience (non-3D).

Brgds, Bert
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 10:32 AM
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Rafael23cc's Avatar
Junction City, KS
Joined Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Skull View Post
Low nitro is fine, I just don't need 30% for the kind of flying I do.
I never suggested 30%. I said :
Quote:
I like to have excess power, so I typically run 30% nitro. Some budget minded people that I fly with prefer to use 10 and 12% nitro.
I've had 4 Raptors, 30, 50, 60 and 90. Great flying sturdy machines. Not the greatest out there, but good enough to throw around and survive several seasons. My Raptor 50 is 9 years old.

Rafael
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 10:44 PM
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Maybe I should just get a gasser.

http://www.ronlund.com/rcheli-prod/C...S/CN1330A.html

Could make that flybarless for $60 with an RJX .50 head.

The MKS servos I listed operate at 120hz, the closest thing to that on the Robird G31 is 125hz, not sure if the extra 5 hz would cause problems.

What about these servos? (if you add these to your cart they are actually $18, although it doesn't say so, these *are* the digital version)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...14s_5_5kg.html

Ino-Labs is a good brand (I have Ino-Labs on my FBL 450 Sport and have never had problems with them) and some people have said that these servos are acceptable for sport flying and soft 3D on a 600 size helicopter. But I'm not sure about FBL. It would make a good throttle servo though.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 04:20 PM
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Rafael23cc's Avatar
Junction City, KS
Joined Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by Atomic Skull View Post
Maybe I should just get a gasser.
Maybe I should ignore this conversation.

Here I am thinking that I was helping a guy that wants to get into RC on a budget. You must be joking.

Good luck.

Rafael
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Skull View Post
Maybe I should just get a gasser.

http://www.ronlund.com/rcheli-prod/C...S/CN1330A.html

Could make that flybarless for $60 with an RJX .50 head.

The MKS servos I listed operate at 120hz, the closest thing to that on the Robird G31 is 125hz, not sure if the extra 5 hz would cause problems.

What about these servos? (if you add these to your cart they are actually $18, although it doesn't say so, these *are* the digital version)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...14s_5_5kg.html

Ino-Labs is a good brand (I have Ino-Labs on my FBL 450 Sport and have never had problems with them) and some people have said that these servos are acceptable for sport flying and soft 3D on a 600 size helicopter. But I'm not sure about FBL. It would make a good throttle servo though.
That Radikal G20 gasser, with the Zenoah engine, is a great heli. Compare to my 50 nitros, the cost per 12 minutes of flying for fuel is about 20 cents compared to $3.00 for my nitro 50's.

The cost of getting both into the air is not all that different. That G20 gasser with engine and basic muffler that comes with the engine (I would suggest getting a better one that is a lot quieter, like the Century V2.) is $800.00 plus your FBL head is a total of $860.00. Note that they are sold out of that special. You can also get that same kit in an FBL version. The kit itself is about $575.00 plus the engine/muffler at $340 is a total with their better metal FBL head is $915.00

A similar nitro 50 size kit, like the Thunder Tiger X50 FBL ($530.00) or the Century Radikal N640FBL ($400.00). Now add a basic 50 nitro engine like the OS50 hyper ($200.00) and a basic 50 muffler ($60.00) you have a total of $790 (X50) or $660.00 (N640).

In the FBL configuration, with the same decent FBL controller that will add $270.00 to the package, they can all be set-up to fly about the same but you will feel the extra weight of the gasser in some situations like in an autorotation.

Also with the FBL configuration, you will need better servos then you would with a flybar configuration with any of them.

So if you are trying to keep the cost down, I would stay with the flybar versions as they fly very well also.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 07:10 PM
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Heli World has the G10 LT kit for $199.

http://www.heli-world.com/detail.aspx?ID=9580

Was planning on using the Robird G31 for FBL, it's quite vibration resistant and has no problems with nitro helis. $90-$100 from most places, I've been using it on my 500 and it flies great.
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