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Old Feb 10, 2013, 08:45 PM
Jim in the Desert
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United States, NM, Las Cruces
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Dead Tom, I agree, I just see all the different options as an RC cornucopia. All good. I'm glad it's a popular hobby, so there's lots of variety.

rafe_b, I guess I'm just now becoming aware of kits so I don't have much of a reference point for what's expensive. I see an awful lot of kits for sale on Ebay from decades ago, and they must be a collector's item because they bring in a pretty penny. But compared to ARFs, I sure see your point. I think you have to take into account that the ARFs are assembled in other countries where it's cheaper, while the kit makes we mentioned are all USA, but still if it's cheaper it is. I will have to have a look around World Models, sounds intriguing. I am lucky to know Pat Tritle, I met him at a fun fly here, he's just up I25 in Albuquerque where I go frequently for work. The Super Cub kits (short kits I guess...wood and a molded cowl and plans) cost $35 each.

Frank and 1987tc, I figure my first builds will be slow and I'll have a lot of time invested. So I don't mind the cost of the kit, my time is worth a lot too, but having a plane I built myself that flies as good as I think it will, will be worth it. Besides, as many say, the building is a pleasure too. I know I had as much repairing and modding my foam Super Cub when I started as I did crashing it. So I'm glad it's got good hardware so it'll last. I'm very curious about that "shock absorbing" landing gear of SA's.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 10:36 PM
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You get everything with the FullHouse 500 except the covering, electronics, and the glue. Full hardware, full kit, FullHouse.

Mark
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 10:41 PM
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Jim,

Check out the QuickOats 250. http://www.stevensaero.com/StevensAe...t-p-20594.html Looks like a sweet build that should go quickly if time is a factor.

Frank
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cloud_9 View Post
Bill, great post, three questions:

1. 42 is not older. Guess that's not a question.
2. why do your kits end up costing more than an ARF? Can you break that down?
3. the monocote is what intimidates me. Can you direct me to sources of info on how to do this?

Thanks
Jim
Jim,

1. 42 feels plenty old to me at the moment. I teach. I get older, but the kids that come through the door each year never do.
2. As you've already read here since your post, many kits don't come as complete with parts as ARF's do. Which isn't a bad thing if you like to customize certain aspects of the build(Spinners, Landing Gear, Wheels and so on). However, these not included necessities in addition to building supplies and covering material add up quick. Go price a SIG kit and look at what's not included that you'll need(not a knock on SIG). Then find a comparably sized similar style ARF and do the same. That exercise will provide a better explanation than I can.
3. I just picked up a covering video from Tower that I'm looking forward to watching. Better yet, just as on this forum, I've a number of fellow club members who have forgotten more than I'll ever know about flying and building. I've already learned a fair amount about covering through discussions following my first kit. I've a feeling that if I asked for help with covering on my next build at a club meeting in return for pizza and beer, I'd get it no problem. Hopefully, you've access to the same kind of folks or better.

Happy flying,

Nate
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:39 AM
Jim in the Desert
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
Jim,

Check out the QuickOats 250. http://www.stevensaero.com/StevensAe...t-p-20594.html Looks like a sweet build that should go quickly if time is a factor.

Frank
That's nice! Boy, a 4 oz wing loading. That's less than gliders, and almost equal to the 3.2 oz of a Slow Stick.

Anybody know what "cubic wing loading" is?

Frank, I'm not in a hurry. I have a few ARFs from when I first got into RC a few years ago so the kits can take as long as needed. That one seems like a great prospect.

Back then I just flew Hobbyzone Super Cubs. This time the Slow Stick. I have a foam Multiplex Magister I'm putting together, and when I'm feeling more confident with the club trainer (which we are replacing because the H9 Alpha dove straight into the ground...when the other student was flying ), I'll sneak out to the field on a slow day and try soloing the Magister.

But I like the kits, like the Super Cub of Pat's, more than the ARFs, so that's where I'll head in the future. The most impressive thing I've seen in RC was when Pat Tritle flew his Super Cub. It looked real. We can usually get a couple hours of dead calm at sunup here. Good for those kits.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 05:08 AM
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Anybody know what "cubic wing loading" is?
"Weight of model in ounces divided by the wing area in sq. Ft raised to the 1.5 power."

Regular wing loading is just weight over wing area.

Given two planes of different sizes but identical wing loading, the larger of the two will be easier to fly. Cubic wing loading reflects this notion by raising the wing area to the 1.5 power.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:51 AM
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I often felt the reason people buy and fly ARFs are because they are intimidated by the build or they do not have time to build a balsa kit like the ones offered by Mountain Models or Stevens Aero.

If you had someone to build those planes for you for free, would you consider one of them? Or are those something you are just not interested in? Looking to see if there is any interest out there for this.

The reason I ask is that while flying my MM Switchback today, I thought about so many folks that are missing out on such a great flying plane just for those reasons.

If there were folks that would help you build a balsa plane, or someone that would straight up build one for you, would you be interested in one then?

Frank

PS The poll didn't work so please just reply with your answer.
I think it's both a matter of time as well as cost. If you pay $40 for a balsa model you still have to factor in costs of build materials, glues extra hardware then covering materials which could easily run over $100, then you still have to do the assembly what's your time worth? When you consider you can buy something ARF or foam of fair quality for under $200 and be up in the air in as little as an hour in some cases I can see why balsa loses out.

I do have several balsa planes, one was built by my father and is over 20 years old and still in service, the other two are partially built. I've always enjoyed the build as much as flying.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:55 AM
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I think it's both a matter of time as well as cost. If you pay $40 for a balsa model you still have to factor in costs of build materials, glues extra hardware then covering materials which could easily run over $100, then you still have to do the assembly what's your time worth? When you consider you can buy something ARF or foam of fair quality for under $200 and be up in the air in as little as an hour in some cases I can see why balsa loses out.

I do have several balsa planes, one was built by my father and is over 20 years old and still in service, the other two are partially built. I've always enjoyed the build as much as flying.
How about this? The kits from Mountain Models or Stevens Aero comes with all the hardware so no additional costs there. And if you had someone volunteer to build the kit for you for free, and apply the covering to your specific liking, you would have a custom built plane ready to fly just like any off to the shelf ARF but it would be unique and just the way you wanted it.

Frank
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
How about this? The kits from Mountain Models or Stevens Aero comes with all the hardware so no additional costs there. And if you had someone volunteer to build the kit for you for free, and apply the covering to your specific liking, you would have a custom built plane ready to fly just like any off to the shelf ARF but it would be unique and just the way you wanted it.

Frank
But why would anyone ever volunteer to build/cover for anyone?
Those are acquired and developed skills.

I have a simple rule... do for others what they can do, for free.
The rest pay for what they cannot do but want from me.

In other words, don't expect the transmission shop to rebuild your 6-speed automatic for free.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:05 PM
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Why? Because some simply have a desire to help. That simple. With out thought of gain or profit.
Not everyone is like that, Maybe even not many. But there definitely some that do.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:09 PM
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But why would anyone ever volunteer to build/cover for anyone?
Those are acquired and developed skills.

I have a simple rule... do for others what they can do, for free.
The rest pay for what they cannot do but want from me.

In other words, don't expect the transmission shop to rebuild your 6-speed automatic for free.
For me, and so far the other two folks that have volunteered, it is the thought of helping others. This hobby has done so much for me, that I want to be able to give something back. Paying it forward so to speak.

And there are a lot of folks here that just like to build. I'd love to build all the kits that Stevens Aero and Mountain Models sells, but there is no way I can afford that. Shoot, I can't afford anything new right now. But, if someone wants me to build them an airplane, I get to have fun building it, and the joy of helping them get a great flying airplane.

Frank
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Why? Because some simply have a desire to help. That simple. With out thought of gain or profit.
Not everyone is like that, Maybe even not many. But there definitely some that do.
You beat me to it Wes. Well said.

Frank
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
How about this? The kits from Mountain Models or Stevens Aero comes with all the hardware so no additional costs there. And if you had someone volunteer to build the kit for you for free, and apply the covering to your specific liking, you would have a custom built plane ready to fly just like any off to the shelf ARF but it would be unique and just the way you wanted it.

Frank
You forgot to mention.... covering, glue (of several types & viscosities,) CA hinges or hinge tape, hobby knife blades, sandpaper (of several grades,) covering iron socks, electricity, heat and light for your shop -- and that's just the expendable/replaceable supplies that come to mind, just to get to a covered airframe. And never mind the occasional broken drill bit or saw blade. If you say the drill and saw are unnecessary, then maybe you plan for zero mistakes or hacking anywhere along the way.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 1987tc View Post
Why? Because some simply have a desire to help. That simple. With out thought of gain or profit.
Not everyone is like that, Maybe even not many. But there definitely some that do.
I help lots of hobbyists in many ways but whole planes... cost.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
How about this? The kits from Mountain Models or Stevens Aero comes with all the hardware so no additional costs there. And if you had someone volunteer to build the kit for you for free, and apply the covering to your specific liking, you would have a custom built plane ready to fly just like any off to the shelf ARF but it would be unique and just the way you wanted it.

Frank
That's why I've always liked building, the kit is 1 of many but doesn't look like everyone elses.
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