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Old Feb 04, 2013, 09:48 PM
Lost Realist
United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Apr 2012
71 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Buzzeo View Post
exactly..... heck, it takes an hour to learn how to do 3 axial rolls....
it took me probably three weeks to learn how to do 3 PERFECT axial rolls...
at least 4 months to perfect the 4 point roll....

JetPlaneFlyer, you hit the nail on the head.... combining TWO difficult maneuvers (four slow rolls each with a same direction 90 degree heading change) took me more hours than I can remember... just to learn the basic rolling circle. to become proficient took months.

getting lots and lots and lots of stick time (and being able to precisely perform VERY difficult maneuvers) is EXACTLY why I fly aerobatics...
if I were looking for something EASY, I'd find a different hobby. :-)
if it were EASY to do, you'd see (MANY) 12 year olds doing it with $99 RTF airplanes at the local baseball field.
if it were EASY we would not know who Hanno Prettner is... :-)

'I like to see more results for my time invested.'
for me, the result from decades of practice:
the smile pastered across my face after having flown a near perfect sequence that most anyone else can not do.

So let's do some reflection. Under Myers-Briggs I am an INTP (granted this is just a tool, not an end all be all clasification). I am obssesed with perfecting my model of the world. Application is a chore for me. I understand exactly how rolling harriers work. I know exactly what inputs are required. However, there is a breakdown in the interface. I am limited not by my understanding but rather I am limited by my own physical ability to observe the orientation of the model and turn that into the appropriate input in a fast enough period of time. I do not enjoy that. Application is only enjoyable for me to the extent that it increases my understanding. Improving this interface issue is not going to increase my understanding.

I think I may have found something good out of this. I don't really want to be the best pilot. I've been forcing myself to try to be an amazing pilot when that doesn't really fit my personality, maybe my ego. I need to start looking at other areas of this hobby...
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 10:06 PM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,386 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyonNightroad View Post
So let's do some reflection. Under Myers-Briggs I am an INTP. I am obssesed with perfecting my model of the world. Application is a chore for me. I understand exactly how rolling harriers work. I know exactly what inputs are required. However, there is a breakdown in the interface. I am limited not by my understanding but rather I am limited by my own physical ability to observe the orientation of the model and turn that into the appropriate input in a fast enough period of time. I do not enjoy that. I enjoy increasing my understanding not improving my ability to apply my understanding...

I think I may have found something good out of this. I don't really want to be the best pilot. I've been forcing myself to try to be an amazing pilot when that doesn't really fit my personality, maybe my ego. I need to start looking at other areas of this hobby...
I totally get that (INTJ)... however I'm not interested in competition and I'm not interested in making the aircraft do whatever I can whatever way I can. I know I could make it do rolling harriers all by itself with the right software and sensors, so that doesn't interest me. I like the hobby specifically because it's something I can physically do, and I never have been good at physical type things. So, it lets me push the personal abilities of my body and I like that. I can't do piro flips and may never be able to, but it's about pushing myself to that goal, not pushing the technology - that's what I do for my day job. That's why I fully support the 'no gyros' rule in competitions, although I will never compete probably.

You do sound like you might make a good programmer. If you like that kind of thing, why not go ahead and experiment with aerobatic autopilot capability? Might be fun!
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 10:25 PM
Raggistored Usehr
gooby's Avatar
United States, FL
Joined Feb 2012
1,059 Posts
So as a basic example, if you were to start flying inverted, the elevator would still cause the plane to pitch up if the stick is pulled down. How would the computer know when to transition? Or does it only engage when the plane is at a certain rpm?
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:40 AM
Wake up, feel pulse, be happy!
C₄H₁₀'s Avatar
United States, AK, Fairbanks
Joined Aug 2009
12,397 Posts
Try a glider with only rudder.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:50 AM
Wake up, feel pulse, be happy!
C₄H₁₀'s Avatar
United States, AK, Fairbanks
Joined Aug 2009
12,397 Posts
After a bit more thought, it seems like this is a rather prevalent trend lately. People will get into the hobby, learn to whip their SuperCub around the park, then move to a 3D foamie and fly it till it falls apart. Then they move to something else and proceed to fill out the 3D maneuver book with every crazy, complex, stick-thrashing maneuver that BoneDoc can teach them. Eventually they reach some limit. Plane can't do anything more, brain can't run any faster, whatever.

I would wager that these people, the 3D hotshots and other extreme flyers, will often tend to scratch their heads when someone says "spot-land this 60W/lb trainer". They get up to the point where they think they're the best there is, but I would guess that they're lacking in the "basic-skills" department. It's a matter of flying with the plane versus making the plane fly.

... Which is why, when topics like this one come up, I tend to just say "get a glider". It sounds like sarcasm... it's not
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 01:19 AM
No flying at the Control Tower
karikamiya's Avatar
Canada, NT, Inuvik
Joined Jun 2010
132 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyonNightroad View Post
I am going to whine and I am going to get flamed for it. After a few years in this hobby I am a little bummed out. Flying is fun. Progressing is fun, at first. I flew CP helicopters in 2011. Got myself to the point where I could fly/hover/funnel inverted and then quit helis. Why? The next progression was lame. Piro Flips, kaos/chaos, etc. etc. At this point I realized that every advanced heli maneuver centered around never ending pirouetting. Tick tocks are relatively easy. Chaos is insane. Every advanced heli routine I see is just never ending piro. piro this piro that piro piro piro. Fundamentally it all came down to rewiring your brain to keep up with the constant piro to the point where the piro doesn't even really exist. The faster the better. Essentially the best heli pilot will be the one who can maintain the highest piro rate. This takes lots and lots and lots and lots of stick time and the progression becomes very very slow. I like to see more results for my time invested. Once I realized this, I said, 'screw this I'm going to relax and fly those boring old fixed wings'. Which is exactly what I did for the last year. Lots of fun. But now I am back in the same damn situation. After being satisfied with stall turns, harriers, hovering, ke/flat spins, slow rolls, pt rolls, ke loops, elevators etc. its time to move on... to rolling circles/harriers this again. It's that piro again just in a different orientation! Why!? Why!? WHY!? Why does everything have to come down to dealling with constantly changing orientations and the best pilot amongst us is the one who can 'rewire' his mind not to see the orientation change at the fastest. Super fast rolling loops what the freak? Now I see why so many people fly 'scale'...

I wonder how many other beginners hit this wall...]

Actually...

This gave me an idea...

Let's eliminate the orientation change...

With a computer...

We've got gyros and accelerometers...

Rather than using these things to eliminate unwanted forces acting on the plane...

Let's use them to eliminate unwanted orientation changes...

Not in the sense of keeping the plane in an upright and level orientation...

But in the sense of keeping the controls always oriented in the X Y Z coordinates...

If I push up on the 'elevator' I am comanding an increase in Z...

The system automatically applies the approriate amount of rudder and elevator to achieve my increase in Z...

Even if the plane is rolling...

Very quicklly...

Very very quickly...

The plane flies semi-autonomously...

My inputs merely change it's 'goals'...

A channel turns this system on and off...

Rolling rates could be achieved that no human is capable of flying through...

???

Profit!
This line at 4:00 should express my feelings for that kind of autopilot

http://youtu.be/XyoAP10uKTk?t=4m

best idea ever
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 03:32 AM
Lost Realist
United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Apr 2012
71 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by C₄H₁₀ View Post
After a bit more thought, it seems like this is a rather prevalent trend lately. People will get into the hobby, learn to whip their SuperCub around the park, then move to a 3D foamie and fly it till it falls apart. Then they move to something else and proceed to fill out the 3D maneuver book with every crazy, complex, stick-thrashing maneuver that BoneDoc can teach them. Eventually they reach some limit. Plane can't do anything more, brain can't run any faster, whatever.

I would wager that these people, the 3D hotshots and other extreme flyers, will often tend to scratch their heads when someone says "spot-land this 60W/lb trainer". They get up to the point where they think they're the best there is, but I would guess that they're lacking in the "basic-skills" department. It's a matter of flying with the plane versus making the plane fly.

... Which is why, when topics like this one come up, I tend to just say "get a glider". It sounds like sarcasm... it's not
Its funny because this is exactly what happened to me. I started with a super cub, added ailerons, brushless, got bored. Moved to epp 3d foamie. Beat it to a million pieces. Got a better 3d ship. Hit the wall. I am going to spend more time on my bixlers (1.1 and 2) and have already been considering a radian. I have also been working on my surface fpv project and will transition to air with the bixlers. I think I found enough to keep me busy.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 03:42 AM
Lost Realist
United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Apr 2012
71 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovs View Post
So as a basic example, if you were to start flying inverted, the elevator would still cause the plane to pitch up if the stick is pulled down. How would the computer know when to transition? Or does it only engage when the plane is at a certain rpm?
With 6 axis gyros and accelerometers the plane 'knows' what orientation it is in at all times. This is how self stabilizing systems work. It's only a matter of someone talented enough coming up with the algorithm to apply the appropriate amount of rudder and elevator. The nice thing is that the system can tell when the inputs put it any direction other than desired one and apply even more or less rudder or elevator... a sort of feedback loop that would allow for some relatively sloppy programming.

Granted this system requires a specific airframe and a minimum throttle amount.

If you understand how the self leveling systems work I think you can picture how this system could work.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 04:43 AM
always looking for clouds
socommk23's Avatar
Joined Aug 2010
422 Posts
someone needs to shill out!

now im the kinda person that needs loads of hobbies to keep my brain ticking over. i get bored easily.
ive done snow boarding wake boarding wind surfing kite surfing jet skiing snow blading mountain biking trials riding motorcycles cars fly full size gliders rc gliders rc electric fast planes helicopters quad copters rc cars off road and on road rc bikes and boats and sailing boats airsoft paintball kickboxing judo.
christ loads of things. but ive never strived to be the best of the best at any of it.
my only aim has been to be happy and enjoy what im doing.

ive been flying rc for 14 years now. tried most of it. ive never gained my a or b cert from the bmfa and never joined a club, i enjoy it by myself. and the one thing that has always kept my attention is the gliders! the forever relenting task of finding lift and staying up. its a challenge and i love it.
i have a styrker q and tbh....its fun for 3 minites to hoon around and go verticle. but i get bored of that very quick.

so i go back to gliders every time.

maybe yopu need to step back and ask why the hell you are even doing this hobby?????
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 03:14 PM
Registered User
shoe's Avatar
USA, AZ, Tucson
Joined Apr 2002
521 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by C₄H₁₀ View Post
Try a glider with only rudder.
This.
(only I'd add an elevator at first )

Seriously though, learning to keep unpowered aircraft aloft is a tremendous journey of enlightenment. Every day and its conditions are different so the challenge is renewed every time you set foot on the field.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 03:37 PM
I hate waiting for parts
Mike_Then's Avatar
United States, NC, Garner
Joined Apr 2001
6,679 Posts
I can understand moving on to different facets of the hobby once your interest in one fades. In my 30 years in the R/C hobby, I have done both surface and air. I started with cars in the early 80s... started with just backyard bashing and moved up to off-road competition. I also did boats briefly but that never held my interest long enough to mature into something serious....in fact I think I only had one boat. I also did model rockets for many many years but eventually the interest in that faded as well.

Anyway, once I got into airplanes in the mid 90's I got rid of all of my car stuff. I started with a high-wing glow trainer like most people did back then. Since then, I've dabbled in many different aspects of aeromodeling. When they no longer hold my interest, I move on to another. Right now my primary interest is in multirotors, scale helis, and FPV. So I see where the OP is coming from, to a certain degree. Once you lose interest in something, it's time to move on to something else.

That's why this hobby is so awesome... there's something for everyone.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 04:20 PM
No flying at the Control Tower
karikamiya's Avatar
Canada, NT, Inuvik
Joined Jun 2010
132 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by C₄H₁₀ View Post
After a bit more thought, it seems like this is a rather prevalent trend lately. People will get into the hobby, learn to whip their SuperCub around the park, then move to a 3D foamie and fly it till it falls apart. Then they move to something else and proceed to fill out the 3D maneuver book with every crazy, complex, stick-thrashing maneuver that BoneDoc can teach them. Eventually they reach some limit. Plane can't do anything more, brain can't run any faster, whatever.

I would wager that these people, the 3D hotshots and other extreme flyers, will often tend to scratch their heads when someone says "spot-land this 60W/lb trainer". They get up to the point where they think they're the best there is, but I would guess that they're lacking in the "basic-skills" department. It's a matter of flying with the plane versus making the plane fly.

... Which is why, when topics like this one come up, I tend to just say "get a glider". It sounds like sarcasm... it's not
Good point. At a certain point, you are no longer flying a plane, but vectoring motor thrust with control surfaces for interesting effects
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 08:04 PM
Registered User
United States, ID, Burley
Joined Mar 2012
3,282 Posts
hmmm i like to to float around,see how far i can glide with no power ect. Then do video of the mountains and country side, get bored and go to flying the edge or sbach (not very well either ) then back to the big powered gliders. i don't get to fly every day,in fact just got out after close to 2 months without a flight ! Never get bored and always learning something.
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Old Sep 26, 2013, 08:06 PM
Detail Freak
target's Avatar
Harbor City, CA
Joined Oct 2003
21,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoe View Post
This.
(only I'd add an elevator at first )

Seriously though, learning to keep unpowered aircraft aloft is a tremendous journey of enlightenment. Every day and its conditions are different so the challenge is renewed every time you set foot on the field.
+10^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Try sailplanes.
I've flown slope, got a little burned out on it, then started flying "F3F" which is slope racing. Adding precision requirements to any type of sport flying "ups the ante" a bit, if you are the type that can deal with competition. I went so far as to represent the USA team in F3F in 2008. It was a great experience.
But, being a big(ish) fish in a small pond gets old, and the club politics didn't go well with my personality....

SO, I took up TD, thermal duration flying. You launch from a winch, try to stay up for the required time (10 minutes, sometimes less or more) and hit a spot on the ground with the nose of the plane at the end, exactly on time.
Its easy......NOT! Sometimes you will make all the wrong turns and cant even keep the plane up for the required time (flying in sinking air).

THEN, you learn a bit about "reading air"... Thats when the fun really starts! Sure, anyone can see hawk circling and figure out there is a thermal there....But what about when you cannot see anything?

Wind vectors! Yep, wind shifts that you power guys may notice mean that there is a thermal somewhere and its repelling or adding to the prevalent wind on the field. Its hard to be 100% all the time predicting, and as SHOE pointed out, every flight of every day is different, so it never gets "too easy".
Someone is always better and not as good as you are. You can both LEARN, AND, TEACH!

Contests not your bag? There's always the League of Silent Flight, LSF for short.
A collection of skill tests that require you accomplish tasks to achieve the level you want to be at, 1-5.... Think you're a bad-ass? Make a 2 hour thermal flight. Then make an 8 hour slope flight....All with a sailplane with no motor/prop.....

You have options.
Try not to get burned out!

R,
Target
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Old Sep 27, 2013, 07:57 AM
Perpetual Noob
Stradawhovious's Avatar
United States, MN, Minneapolis
Joined Jun 2013
398 Posts
I'm tickled pink to be doing touch 'n gos and slow and low passes with a 3ch foam trainer.

I must be doing this hobby wrong.
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