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Old Feb 01, 2013, 09:03 PM
LcJ
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United States, LA, Monroe
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
Those rights were claimed by the authority of men in the newly formed government.
Kenny, they were what the perceived and believed were God given rights, and I for one accept and agree with their opinion.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 09:24 PM
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Redmond, Washington, USA
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It dilutes the Bill of Rights because it changes the issuing authority of our rights from God to men. The Founders asserted that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights were God-given and are therefore unalienable and cannot be taken away by the authority of any men. The Bill of Rights merely recognizes that as fact.

In the Founders' eyes, the rights are "natural" and granted by God. This means they cannot be taken away. For the government to deny you these rights is wrong and unjust by definition. Just because you are being denied your rights doesn't mean that they are no longer yours. No man may revoke rights given by God.

What you are saying is that the rights are effectively granted by the authority of men. As such, they can also be revoked or changed by the authority of men.

There is a key difference. When rights granted by God are denied, you have the moral right to fight for them because denial of those rights is inherently unjust. As I said above, it is unjust by definition. Rights granted by the authority of men may be taken away by men and in that case you would not be morally justified in fighting to keep them because they were not granted by a supreme authority that supersedes the authority of men. The Founders were very wise to make this important distinction and it is unique in the history of mankind. We should cherish and protect it since it is at the core of what really differentiates the United States from every other country that is or has been.

Kenny, for you to state that the concept of God-given rights is a "joke" shows either a callous disregard for what so many have fought to achieve and protect or a simple inability to understand this simple yet important distinction I've been trying to describe. You may take some solace in knowing that you're not alone. The distinction between God-give vs government-granted is very likely lost on most of the class of 2012.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
I don't see how it dilutes the Bill of Rights.
The rights are claimed by the authority of men.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 11:01 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
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You can insist that rights are God given all you want, but the document clearly states that Rights are given by the authority of the people.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 11:12 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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And yes, rights can be given or taken away.

Women now have the right to vote, where at first, they did not.

Further, why would you insist that God is on the side of America?... Don't women have the right to choose whether or not their unborn fetus gets born?
Is this a God given right?

Clearly, it can be seen that rights are given and taken by the authority of men, and their government.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 11:21 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by n00b-E View Post
No Kenny, those right were claimed to be protected from the authority of men. There's a difference, you'd do well to learn it.
You can rewrite the document if you want to.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 11:23 PM
whiirrrrrr
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United States, TX, Houston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
And yes, rights can be given or taken away.

Women now have the right to vote, where at first, they did not.

Further, why would you insist that God is on the side of America?... Don't women have the right to choose whether or not their unborn fetus gets born?
Is this a God given right?

Clearly, it can be seen that rights are given and taken by the authority of men, and their government.
That fetus and its unique DNA have the right to LIFE, wither you believe it's God given or man given. Our constitution protects our right to life, liberty, and justice for ALL.

If you believe rights are given from the gov/man, then I guess you have no problem with women being property in the Middle East, and that killing them is o.k.

All men(and women) are created equal. So for women to not be allowed to vote is blocking their "right"
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 11:27 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by srt8madness View Post
That fetus and its unique DNA have the right to LIFE, wither you believe it's God given or man given. Our constitution protects our right to life, liberty, and justice for ALL.

If you believe rights are given from the gov/man, then I guess you have no problem with women being property in the Middle East, and that killing them is o.k.

All men(and women) are created equal. So for women to not be allowed to vote is blocking their "right"
You illustrate the point that rights are fluid, and depend on the condition of man, at any given time.
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 12:40 AM
Not watchin from the sideline
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United States, OH
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
Man does not have any rights at all... Man is an animal, just like the rest of nature.

Any so called rights, are taken by man... or given by government.
Animals and men are free... Animals especially. Lions dont pay taxes. Giraffes eat all the leaves off of trees, regardless of regulation. Birds rarely get jailed for singing, while people are still asleep. When a bear eats a man, do we hunt him down and serve him justice? Nope we just clean up the mess.

Same for man. Man on an individual level decides to give up his rights for society. Some are just condition to believe that there rights are given. Which is fine, but you (the individual) still retain those rights no matter what the powers that be write down as law. Nothing is stopping you from being free. An example would be drug addicted persons, do they obey the law? No, but if they get caught, people that dont agree with their lifestyle will make a special cage for them.

All rights are retained by the individual if he so chooses to use them.
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 12:45 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by Yeaman View Post
Animals and men are free... Animals especially. Lions dont pay taxes. Giraffes eat all the leaves off of trees, regardless of regulation. Birds rarely get jailed for singing, while people are still asleep. When a bear eats a man, do we hunt him down and serve him justice? Nope we just clean up the mess.

Same for man. Man on an individual level decides to give up his rights for society. Some are just condition to believe that there rights are given. Which is fine, but you (the individual) still retain those rights no matter what the powers that be write down as law. Nothing is stopping you from being free. An example would be drug addicted persons, do they obey the law? No, but if they get caught, people that dont agree with their lifestyle will make a special cage for them.

All rights are retained by the individual if he so chooses to use them.
What right is man giving up?... The right to kill as he sees fit?... Just like any other animal?

I don't think so.
Rights don't exist in nature.
Rights are man made.
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
What right is man giving up?... The right to kill as he sees fit?... Just like any other animal?

I don't think so.
Right don't exist in nature.
Nope, that will happen regardless of your laws or govt 'given' rights. That is why prison was created, to confine those who have over stepped their freedom by preventing anothers freedom.

I meant to clarify on this earlier...
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 12:57 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
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Originally Posted by Yeaman View Post
Nope, that will happen regardless of your laws or govt 'given' rights. That is why prison was created, to confine those who have over stepped their freedom by preventing anothers freedom.

I meant to clarify on this earlier...
Yes, rights are unique to man, they do not exist in nature.
Further, the only reason they exist for man, is because society invents them.
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 01:11 AM
Not watchin from the sideline
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United States, OH
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
Yes, rights are unique to man, they do not exist in nature.
Further, the only reason they exist for man, is because society invents them.
Well then I sort of agree, but your position earlier was...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
Man does not have any rights at all... Man is an animal, just like the rest of nature.

Any so called rights, are taken by man... or given by government.
Man unlike any other animal has the ability of judgement and can follow it if he so chooses. Thats regardless of what a collective of other men decide.

Regardless, this is more of a philosophical argument. Not a your right, I am wrong discussion, because like too many things in life it is open for interpretation (on the individuals level of course. )
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 01:18 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by Yeaman View Post
Well then I sort of agree, but your position earlier was...



Man unlike any other animal has the ability of judgement and can follow it if he so chooses. Thats regardless of what a collective of other men decide.

Regardless, this is more of a philosophical argument. Not a your right, I am wrong discussion, because like too many things in life it is open for interpretation (on the individuals level of course. )
It's true that man has judgement, but I say that the judgement changes from time to time...as do rights.

Also, I think my position is consistent, and not contradictory.
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 01:25 AM
Trons and Fumes
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Fallon, NV
Joined Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
You can insist that rights are God given all you want, but the document clearly states that Rights are given by the authority of the people.
No, the document does not clearly state that.
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 01:25 AM
Trons and Fumes
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Fallon, NV
Joined Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
And yes, rights can be given or taken away.

Women now have the right to vote, where at first, they did not.


Further, why would you insist that God is on the side of America?... Don't women have the right to choose whether or not their unborn fetus gets born?
Is this a God given right?

Clearly, it can be seen that rights are given and taken by the authority of men, and their government.
voting is more of a granted right.
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