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Old Jan 24, 2013, 09:41 PM
Don't take any wooden nickels
finguz's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Mar 2012
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Question
starting funnels, need help

So I've been practicing funnels on the sim lately, or trying to at least. I can do a big wide funnel without any rudder input, or make it smaller and tighter it seems if I adda slight rudder input into the direction of the funnel (at least nose up). However after the first funnel circuit I tend to lose the actual funnel, elevation being the culprit. Sometimes I can get a few going before this happens.

I guess my question is, am I even thinking about this right? Should I be adding rudder at all?
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 09:46 PM
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Denver, CO
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Yes, it needs rudder.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 10:29 PM
AMA# 548800
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United States, CT, Trumbull
Joined Dec 2007
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Its a bit of all 3 , ele, ail and rudder . Just keep practicing you will get it . I still cant do nose down funnels , but just accidentally learned inverted nose down funnels
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 10:39 PM
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Philippines, Calabarzon, San Pedro
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Maybe you can try imagining yourself doing a banked turn and offsetting the controls 90 degrees?
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 12:14 AM
Don't take any wooden nickels
finguz's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
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Got it, cool thanks guys I'll keep practicing.

Nose down or up funnels feel the same to me at this point, so hopefully that keeps up if I keep practicing both. Inverted funnels are also pie dishes, right? I started inverted hover practice but I need to get the tail in down before I can be confident with inverted flight much less tricks... I did try an inverted funnel, and failed big time . On the sim of course.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 03:13 PM
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For funnels, you NEED rudder. Once you get it into the funnel pattern, don't move your left stick!!! All you need is the right stick. Up and down on the right stick (elevator) will control the height of the funnel and left and right on the right stick will control the tightness of the funnel.

Funnels were one of the harder things to learn imho,

Good luck!
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 04:02 PM
Don't take any wooden nickels
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Cool thanks heliclub81, on the sim I found if I let the heli decide the circumference of the funnel I can get away with no rudder, but it's a big circle... in real life it might be something like 75 feet diameter, not that anything accurate could be transfered between sim and life.

I've also been flying planks in the sim knife edge quite a bit, I feel it has helped me grasp sideways heli flight also, or the two helped each other. Same with inverted orientations on both, which I'm a noob to.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 06:07 PM
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Your Sim is not very realistic at this. If no rudder is used the tail will weathervane behind the helicopter. Usually what I do is act like I'm going into a turn, but give extra rudder to get the tail where I want. As the tail comes around you need to transition your aileron, and elevator input. My helicopters are fairly stable in a funnel, and don't need much additional input. Just mostly hold the controls as is, with slight inputs to correct for things like wind.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 11:30 PM
Don't take any wooden nickels
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I see, thanks Roto Rob. For some reason I couldn't do them worth anything today when I tried earlier... and I tried left aileron direction also, a little different animal! I'll keep trying though.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:22 PM
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United States, CT, Trumbull
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Not sure what sim you are using . The 250 and 450 are harder to do funnels. You should practice with a 600 or 700. a lot of the larger ones will fly alot better and will do it easier to start with. I like the Goblin or the Hensseleit TDR , they make any beginner look good
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 10:52 AM
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I practiced a lot on the sim and it became second nature. I did tail up funnels by starting a circuit or figure 8 and then tip the nose down into a turn while apply rudder and forward cyclic.

Thats the best way I can describe it. You have to have just the right amount of pitch, roll, rud, centrifugal force and throttle. But, once you get it, the heli just kind of locks in.

I guess the key is to bank normally and over shoot the turn with rudder till the nose is down and apply forward cyclic with left or right cyclic depending on circuit being cw or ccw.

(I did this with a little mcpx with wind, so anything larger will be much easier)
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 04:39 PM
Don't take any wooden nickels
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Jombo, I'm using an old version of phoenix (1.05), because the pc I use for sim'ing is junk. I have another pc but even it is like 5 years old and will run up to phoenix 2.5, I think if it had a decent video card it would run 4.0. But I just need a new pc altogether.

I try different helis all the time on it, large and small. Maybe it would be better to stick with 1 heli like the 600 the whole time while learning new things...

Thanks phoenixheli, I'll try to imagine it like that next time I practice.

I might be doomed to scale flying, 3d is crazy . I have a lot to work on, including my inverted tail in (my fingers haven't grasped yet).
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 11:56 PM
AMA# 548800
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Its taken me about 2 years to get where i am today . I still loose orientation sometimes when it gets too far away . the best way to learn for me is to do the same thing over and over again , just one move . If its flying backwards , hovering on its side , flying inverted or anything else , I don't stop till i just keep crashing and cant see strait anymore . The next day do the same thing , and i get better at it . Then i start crashing again and stop . This can go on for days or weeks , usually 9 days is the max to learn a new move , but putting together a nice routine can take months.
Take it slow, there is no rush
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 12:40 AM
Don't take any wooden nickels
finguz's Avatar
United States, CA, San Diego
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I'll keep at it.

It frustrates me because I started funnels out of nowhere and for 2-3 days straight I could do them, but lately I try and it seems harder and I can't get them right. I just need to focus & practice more.
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Last edited by finguz; Feb 03, 2013 at 12:48 AM.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 12:58 PM
AMA# 548800
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United States, CT, Trumbull
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finguz , I just found that doing funnels are easier in normal than idle up . Try that , maybe there is more positive pitch range before it goes negative and more forgiving .
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