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Old Feb 17, 2013, 07:19 PM
Begin with end in mind...
power's Avatar
Eagle Lake, Minnesota
Joined Apr 2003
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Originally Posted by Bricobrac View Post
For the Luxury version, i will maybe show some sneak pics in one week or 2 of the production version, but we will keep production parts away from eyes as long as possible to avoid some " friends" to be too much inspired.. We already had a very bad surprise when releasing our first concepts renderings, it won't happen twice..

BEst regards,
Fabien
What was the bad surprise?

Honestly, I feel your luxury version is so over and above what "they" would want to produce that those with the extra cash will go your way. Quality will always sell

Also...on a different topic of balancing a gimbal. For a gimbal that relies completely on motor bearing support, such as the gimbal I made shown in the video I posted earlier as well as your luxury version. "Balance" is really a "close enough" situation. For my setup, I used motors without stators. Since I have a pile of motors laying around, I machined a non ferrous ring equal to stator weight and installed it in two motors. This allows me to balance to precision without the magnetic drag. By having magnetic drag, there is no way to get close to the balance I have without the stators.

So....IMO, when the topic of critical balance comes up in conversation, I feel if it is close, it will have to be good enough as most people will not be able to remove the magnetic drag from the motors for balancing.

Thoughts?

Mike
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 08:04 PM
Begin with end in mind...
power's Avatar
Eagle Lake, Minnesota
Joined Apr 2003
5,600 Posts
I have pretty much completed my install and balancing. I made a light structure from cedar and aircraft ply. I still use wood on a lot of my applications as I have found that it is superior to vibration dampening (and cost) in comparison to carbon and other composites. I have tried pretty much everything out there and I still use wood. Even on my frames. I have gotten past the I need it to look super techno and stay with what produces results. I feel the weight of the final assembly is satisfactory.

Here are some shots of my install, I mounted up a KK2 board just for grins I wanted to see how the mounting pattern is going to work out. Just need my 28 and 30 ga silicone wire for hookups and a wiz bang stabilization board and the next step of the journey will begin

Mike
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 11:10 PM
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Freehold, USA
Joined Jan 2008
395 Posts
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Originally Posted by v00d0o View Post
I have too much free time. The holes greatly reduce strength. Not doing that again...until I get better at flying. They only brought down about 40 grams in the arms.. and about 20-30 grams in the landing gear.

But with lightness comes the possibility for everything to get broken in a crash:


Back to the drawing board

If I do get this gimbal.. I have to try out a similar vibration mount. Just make the wires tighter with less slop.
Hey what mm are those alu arms?
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 11:11 PM
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United States, VA, Fairfax
Joined Dec 2012
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Originally Posted by DorianJ View Post
Hey what mm are those alu arms?
10mm
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 12:54 AM
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Hi Guys
I wound 115 turns of .15 wire on to the correct 6 poles for this stator and I saw .15 Ohms. It was about the right wire density to give a full capacity of wire. But that is going to be .3 Ohms across two phases. Hmmm. So I need much thicker wire?

The next thought that occurred to me was that It would be much nicer if the complete motor was finished with a hollow shaft so that all of the wires could pass though the center and not affect the balance. Not enough room for a ball race but a nice thin wall bronze bearing would do the job.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 01:16 AM
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Joined Jul 2011
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Here is my video with Alexmoss electronics.
Here are the pictures of the gimbal that I made.
I have a brushed version that preforms well too.
I have to setup the PID settings a little bit, this was the first test in the air.

http://www.flyfreak.net/fpv-i-ap/jazz-ddg/45/



JAZZ DDG + Alex Mos + Octokopter Jazz6 (6 min 34 sec)


JAZZ DDG + Alex Mos + Octocopter Jazz7 (6 min 35 sec)
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:16 AM
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Gredeby's Avatar
Kingdom of Sweden, Blekinge County
Joined Aug 2010
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[QUOTE=jazavac2302;24169516]Here is my video with Alexmoss electronics.
Here are the pictures of the gimbal that I made.
I have a brushed version that preforms well too.
I have to setup the PID settings a little bit, this was the first test in the air.


It,s very good & you can fly also
I hope I can achive this quality of video too.
Regards,
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:56 AM
THE ЯUSSIANS ARE COMING!
rcposter's Avatar
United States, CA, SF
Joined Apr 2011
192 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazavac2302 View Post
Here is my video with Alexmoss electronics.
Here are the pictures of the gimbal that I made.
I have a brushed version that preforms well too.
I have to setup the PID settings a little bit, this was the first test in the air.

http://www.flyfreak.net/fpv-i-ap/jazz-ddg/45/



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzwGuQF5454

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5LZbSBsqHY
Those videos look pretty good. Might you consider posting some video which doesn't use such a distorted lens?
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bricobrac View Post
....>8 snip

I have been testing many different systems and configurations willing to align the camera SENSOR with the axis ( lens is not same position as the sensor) and it gives great results if your are piloting with a mega zoom for pan, but outside that particular case, i did not notice real differences, the real difference was mainly that yes, the defects are bigger and more noticeable if the gimbal is not correctly set, because if the stabilisation is not good, and lens or sensor not close enough to the axes of rotation, then yes they describe arcs and you can see it in the picture.

But this is not supposed to happen if the gimbal is correctly setup ( it keeps the level ), then the second factor is the pilot skills and machine setup and behaviour, the smoothest you fly, the better will be the pictures, if you fly hectic, no matter the gimbal you have and it's stabilisation system, you will not get a great result ( the complete picture field will jump upe, down, left and right).

Well, this is a debate that could be during for weeks, but one more time you will see what is in the box and how it peforms, this is all i can say

We have same performances as Jussi as we use same motors / same controllers ( the mechanics is just a " support"), but we have added some little extra things on the gimbal for the maniacs like me )))
OK, I didn't mean to derail this thread and I think we both agree that an Arc within an Arc within an Arc (within an Arc?) would give less pleasing results than just a single Arc under challenging conditions. There is an evolutionary reason why your eyes are in the middle of your head and not on stalks above it; and it's not only for protection. Tracking prey while upright and moving is easier when they are already on the end of a long stick (your body).

But it's all dependant on other factors: as you point out: poor flying, trying to GPS hover in a choppy wind, or using too small motors on a too big camera so the BLGC can't keep up and you will start to notice it again. Everyone has different standards. Many people don't balance their motors, some don't balance their props.

I saw the requirement for the Lens (yes, actually the Sensor ) being central about all the axes being discussed out of the design requirements quite early in the thread. It appeared to me that the balanced CoG grew in importance from being a 'major' factor in the design to being the 'only' one to worry about, because of the way the BLGC works. On a Servo based setup you would certainly try to centre the lens(sensor) because the effect is more noticeable with the lesser performance of the servo systems, while the improved performance of the BLGC system will make the effect less obvious.

For my own interest, I would certainly like to compare the results of:
1) Sensor aligned - gimbal not balanced, working harder to maintain level, and
2) Gimbal balanced and Sensor not aligned, and
3) Both Aligned and Balanced.

But...it is one of the simpler things for the end user (maniac) to correct to get the best of everything without needing retooling, so as a fellow maniac, I look forward to the extras in the box.
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Last edited by Brandigan; Feb 18, 2013 at 06:54 AM.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 06:06 AM
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Joined Sep 2011
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Please send one of these prototypes to a Phantom owner Most of these owners aren't too technical, so it would be good to send it to someone knowable so the tester can come with feedback to you guys about what extra parts the Phantoms need/instructions to get it working I know it already needs longer legs. Maybe that is something you guys can make as well. Maybe sell it as a "complete package" for us Phantom owners?

The wait is killing me (but I know it will be worth it in the end).
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Last edited by beamen; Feb 18, 2013 at 07:27 AM.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 06:08 AM
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The Netherlands, NB, Goirle
Joined Jan 2013
40 Posts
Wow, I found this tread this weekend and read a lot about the brushless gimball. This would be great on my DJI Phantom. I am interessed in a complete gimball (not only the board) so I will continue to follow this tread. Looking forward on more information about it.

Greetings Krijn, The Netherlands
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 07:44 AM
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Bricobrac's Avatar
Paris / Nice, France
Joined Aug 2002
2,091 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandigan View Post
OK, I didn't mean to derail this thread and I think we both agree that an Arc within an Arc within an Arc (within an Arc?) would give less pleasing results than just a single Arc under challenging conditions. There is an evolutionary reason why your eyes are in the middle of your head and not on stalks above it; and it's not only for protection. Tracking prey while upright and moving is easier when they are already on the end of a long stick (your body).

But it's all dependant on other factors: as you point out: poor flying, trying to GPS hover in a choppy wind, or using too small motors on a too big camera so the BLGC can't keep up and you will start to notice it again. Everyone has different standards. Many people don't balance their motors, some don't balance their props.

I saw the requirement for the Lens (yes, actually the Sensor ) being central about all the axes being discussed out of the design requirements quite early in the thread. It appeared to me that the balanced CoG grew in importance from being a 'major' factor in the design to being the 'only' one to worry about, because of the way the BLGC works. On a Servo based setup you would certainly try to centre the lens(sensor) because the effect is more noticeable with the lesser performance of the servo systems, while the improved performance of the BLGC system will make the effect less obvious.

For my own interest, I would certainly like to compare the results of:
1) Sensor aligned - gimbal not balanced, working harder to maintain level, and
2) Gimbal balanced and Sensor not aligned, and
3) Both Aligned and Balanced.

But...it is one of the simpler things for the end user (maniac) to correct to get the best of everything without needing retooling, so as a fellow maniac, I look forward to the extras in the box.
Hi again,

this is an interresting discussion

Thing is: crossing axes and lens and CG / rotation CG is not as easy as this as you need to add extra weight to achieve this, and weight is ourn ennemy with direct drive gimbals...

So the best we can do is to put the weight (gimbal parts and motors) the best as we can to try to bring the rotation CG as close as the camera sensors to align the axes as much as we can.

The thing to take into consideration would be, do i add weight ( inertia) to get the axes crossedwith sensor center, so i get less sharper stabilisation, or do i move the axes a little but get sharper stabilisation, and so on..

As i said it's sure it's better to match sensor / axes as much as possible but then the support of the gimbal itself shall then be acting as a steadycam in the middle and CG of the frames ( CG should be center) to really bring all the best conditions.

This is why it would give perfect results on an Ecilop or something like that, but on any other aircraft the pilot skills and machine setup will really tell the difference, as we are just willing to keep the level on stabilisation.

When it will come to 3 axis, they yes, i do agree, having all crossed together can only be better.

It's like a Cinestar rig, is it better to align sensors / lenses on axes or is it a better choice to balance the thing so the CG (rotation) is respected and "equivalent"...

This is all about compromises and yes, i will make many tests early march as i'm going to the Ceema ( testing center where i can fly all day) and sure i'll publish some videos..

BEst regards,
Fabien
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 07:51 AM
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v00d0o's Avatar
United States, VA, Fairfax
Joined Dec 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazavac2302 View Post
Here is my video with Alexmoss electronics.
Here are the pictures of the gimbal that I made.
I have a brushed version that preforms well too.
I have to setup the PID settings a little bit, this was the first test in the air.

http://www.flyfreak.net/fpv-i-ap/jazz-ddg/45/
Where are all these gimbals coming from? Are there prerelease boards out there..or are they using something else?
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 09:56 AM
Keep at it .....
fortknox's Avatar
Nigeria, Lagos
Joined Jan 2013
27 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by beamen View Post
Please send one of these prototypes to a Phantom owner Most of these owners aren't too technical, so it would be good to send it to someone knowable so the tester can come with feedback to you guys about what extra parts the Phantoms need/instructions to get it working I know it already needs longer legs. Maybe that is something you guys can make as well. Maybe sell it as a "complete package" for us Phantom owners?

The wait is killing me (but I know it will be worth it in the end).
I can't agree less. I have a Phantom and I believe th complete package will make a whole lot of sense.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by fortknox View Post
i can't agree less. I have a phantom and i believe th complete package will make a whole lot of sense. :d
+1:d
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