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Old Mar 02, 2013, 08:52 PM
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United States, CA, Modesto
Joined Aug 2012
828 Posts
No, everything is like butta. Just put the metal gear servo in and it shook 100 times worse all by itself, and the one that was in it was an MJX. My guess is that those two servos are not compatible with the Walkera Rx/Gyro. I just ordered 8 more Tower Pros so we'll see what happens.
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Old Mar 03, 2013, 06:29 PM
Brent 黑雁
BThirsk's Avatar
Canada, AB, Ponoka
Joined Jan 2012
1,780 Posts
OldOZ.
I wanted to discuss the brushless tail motor.
I took mine out yesterday in between storms.
It worked pretty well and the tail worked fine for about 4 minutes. This time, I let the heli sit outside for 15 minutes to normalize to ambient temperature thinking this would cure my gyro issue. It did not as at about the 4 minute mark when I did a sharp turn into the wind and had the heli at about a 35-40 degree forward pitch, when I applied power, the heli went into a piro counter clockwise and ended up in a snow bank. Fortunately, there was no damage at all.
Today, I was checking and rechecking my complete setup. I adjust gyro delay to reduce bounce and adjusted the gain to make tail hold the best without wag. After a little more testing, the heli soon would only spin as the tail motor would not hold anymore.
After about 8 minutes of actual flying off and on, I noticed when doing pitch pumps, the tail would swing hard to the right being overpower by the rotor.
I am starting to think my issue is not the gyro, but the motor on 2s is not fast enough to keep up with the 3s main. When the battery voltage drops to 7.5 or less, there may not be enough power to control the tail. I have a 2000kv motor.
I do have a 2900kv coming so I can try that.
What was your experience when you tried the brushless tail. What voltage did you use on the main.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 05:09 AM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BThirsk View Post
OldOZ.
I wanted to discuss the brushless tail motor.
I took mine out yesterday in between storms.
It worked pretty well and the tail worked fine for about 4 minutes. This time, I let the heli sit outside for 15 minutes to normalize to ambient temperature thinking this would cure my gyro issue. It did not as at about the 4 minute mark when I did a sharp turn into the wind and had the heli at about a 35-40 degree forward pitch, when I applied power, the heli went into a piro counter clockwise and ended up in a snow bank. Fortunately, there was no damage at all.
Today, I was checking and rechecking my complete setup. I adjust gyro delay to reduce bounce and adjusted the gain to make tail hold the best without wag. After a little more testing, the heli soon would only spin as the tail motor would not hold anymore.
After about 8 minutes of actual flying off and on, I noticed when doing pitch pumps, the tail would swing hard to the right being overpower by the rotor.
I am starting to think my issue is not the gyro, but the motor on 2s is not fast enough to keep up with the 3s main. When the battery voltage drops to 7.5 or less, there may not be enough power to control the tail. I have a 2000kv motor.
I do have a 2900kv coming so I can try that.
What was your experience when you tried the brushless tail. What voltage did you use on the main.
I tried practically every combination possible!
However, the only serious final contenders were (all with HK 450 frame and MJX rotor head):
a) the MJX Tx/Rx, Xtreme Brushed to BL converter, with Turnigy 2211 (2300) tail and HK 5250Kv main on 2S
b) the Align (Futuba) 6ch Tx/Rx, Align ESC and 3550KV motor, 3s battery and Turnigy 2211 tail
and
c) the Align Tx/Rx, Align ESC and 3550 KV with belt tail on 3s: or the same (with the Align ESC - eliminates some minor bind problems) and an HK5250KV on 2s.

In the end, the belt option was so far ahead of the BL powered tail as to be a no contest winner IMO: and the only build that could seriously compete with the F45/450 MJX basic conversion, with 2S and MJX brushed tail. As (IIRC) Arrowshooter found a while back.
Also, there was no practical difference between either variant of c).

My experience with BL tails (and afraid this isn't going to help you much, but may be of interest to others).
I found (as you did, I guess) getting exactly the right balance of tail rotor (motor power/KV, prop size, and degree of soft start/timing) with respect to the main (in all its own options) to be a bit of a minefield, completely eliminated by the belt option.
However, all variants of the dual BL motored F45/450 did fly, but never without a performance sacrifice. Think this may be due to the fact that any BL tail motor will take a far greater time to spin up than a belt tail will take to vary pitch: but that's just my 2 cents.

So, the final F45/450 stable consists of one 'basic' heli (as above, 450 frame, MJX Tx/Rx, rotor head, and standard tail): and one FP 450, MJX rotor head, and pretty well all Align/HK/Futuba components otherwise. Both fly extremely well, both will fly in my local 15-20 knot winds, and both will survive crashes no CP could. Accordingly now I'm thinking of finalizing things at this point, and switching between fun flying the FPs alternating with also slowly(!) advancing my CP skills.
Hence my low profile lately!
Regards
John
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 07:18 AM
Brent 黑雁
BThirsk's Avatar
Canada, AB, Ponoka
Joined Jan 2012
1,780 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOz View Post
I tried practically every combination possible!
However, the only serious final contenders were (all with HK 450 frame and MJX rotor head):
a) the MJX Tx/Rx, Xtreme Brushed to BL converter, with Turnigy 2211 (2300) tail and HK 5250Kv main on 2S
b) the Align (Futuba) 6ch Tx/Rx, Align ESC and 3550KV motor, 3s battery and Turnigy 2211 tail
and
c) the Align Tx/Rx, Align ESC and 3550 KV with belt tail on 3s: or the same (with the Align ESC - eliminates some minor bind problems) and an HK5250KV on 2s.

In the end, the belt option was so far ahead of the BL powered tail as to be a no contest winner IMO: and the only build that could seriously compete with the F45/450 MJX basic conversion, with 2S and MJX brushed tail. As (IIRC) Arrowshooter found a while back.
Also, there was no practical difference between either variant of c).

My experience with BL tails (and afraid this isn't going to help you much, but may be of interest to others).
I found (as you did, I guess) getting exactly the right balance of tail rotor (motor power/KV, prop size, and degree of soft start/timing) with respect to the main (in all its own options) to be a bit of a minefield, completely eliminated by the belt option.
However, all variants of the dual BL motored F45/450 did fly, but never without a performance sacrifice. Think this may be due to the fact that any BL tail motor will take a far greater time to spin up than a belt tail will take to vary pitch: but that's just my 2 cents.

So, the final F45/450 stable consists of one 'basic' heli (as above, 450 frame, MJX Tx/Rx, rotor head, and standard tail): and one FP 450, MJX rotor head, and pretty well all Align/HK/Futuba components otherwise. Both fly extremely well, both will fly in my local 15-20 knot winds, and both will survive crashes no CP could. Accordingly now I'm thinking of finalizing things at this point, and switching between fun flying the FPs alternating with also slowly(!) advancing my CP skills.
Hence my low profile lately!
Regards
John
Thanks for your input.
I guess I have been known to be stubborn. I will keep working until I get it.
I must say, the 4 minutes I had mine up, it did handle very much like my 450cp flybar heli. You can stand it on it's nose.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 08:05 AM
John
Australia, QLD, Brisbane
Joined Aug 2012
542 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BThirsk View Post
Thanks for your input.
I guess I have been known to be stubborn. I will keep working until I get it.
I must say, the 4 minutes I had mine up, it did handle very much like my 450cp flybar heli. You can stand it on it's nose.
I'm sure you will. My problem (despite my collection of 5 different BL tail motors, 1800 to 3800KV!) and 3 different control systems (conversion, ESC, belt) I was shooting for acceptable performance in extreme wind conditions for FP.
Most of the dual BL systems listed had comparable performance to the original stock F45 (as per Hinnerk's, TumppiT's, your own - and others - pioneering work had already proven). I was looking for something significantly better, due to local weather, and (so far) have failed.
The 450 belt is a quickfix answer, sure, but of no use to loyal F45 owners. That first 4min of yours may potentially have shown a new and better path. Am watching with interest .

PS - FWIW, the Turnigy 2211 tail ran just fine on 2s or 3s.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 01:17 PM
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United States, CA, Modesto
Joined Aug 2012
828 Posts
Old Thumbs - New Tricks

Decided to fly like the big boys and switch from mod 4 to mod 2. All I can say is

Good thing I have the F45 to practice with and I am beating the out of it. I have a backup and two more in a box just in case.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 01:57 PM
Brent 黑雁
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Canada, AB, Ponoka
Joined Jan 2012
1,780 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrowshooter View Post
Decided to fly like the big boys and switch from mod 4 to mod 2. All I can say is

Good thing I have the F45 to practice with and I am beating the out of it. I have a backup and two more in a box just in case.
You fly so well, it won't take you long to convert. You got a sim.
If not, get the phoenix with the TX. I think it comes with a six channel spectrum.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BThirsk View Post
You fly so well, it won't take you long to convert. You got a sim.
If not, get the phoenix with the TX. I think it comes with a six channel spectrum.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I may think about a sim when I run out of F45's. LOL
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 03:37 PM
Goooo!!!! Get to da choppa!!!!
United States, NC, Albemarle
Joined Jan 2013
523 Posts
My 450 came today! Brace yourselves for the flood of NOOB questions and mistakes! LOL

Gotta match the Funcopter rotor to the 450 main shaft, or the other way around- whichever is easiest. Time to call my buddy at the machine shop!

Still trying to decide on a radio too... Oh well.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kpinnc View Post
My 450 came today! Brace yourselves for the flood of NOOB questions and mistakes! LOL

Gotta match the Funcopter rotor to the 450 main shaft, or the other way around- whichever is easiest. Time to call my buddy at the machine shop!

Still trying to decide on a radio too... Oh well.
Sweet! Iff I recall you need to make the hole in the Funcopter 5mm to fit the shaft.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 05:04 PM
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My Little Jiggle

Now I got it on tape. Two brand new servos and you can see how it does until a little jerk on the cyclics. It did it even when the wind hit it. Since I am still a bit of a rook on the whole gyro thing, is it two much or two little gain, or is that even it? The move to the left near the end was me trying to get it to stop.

FBL FP450 Jiggle (1 min 56 sec)
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 05:21 PM
Brent 黑雁
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Canada, AB, Ponoka
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrowshooter View Post
Now I got it on tape. Two brand new servos and you can see how it does until a little jerk on the cyclics. It did it even when the wind hit it. Since I am still a bit of a rook on the whole gyro thing, is it two much or two little gain, or is that even it? The move to the left near the end was me trying to get it to stop.
Too much gyro gain causes the servos to over compensate. Low the gain a little at a time until it goes away. Changing to different, especially faster servos, will usually require less gain. You just have to play with it to get the most gain with not jiggle. You can turn the gain way down and it will make the heli very reactive, but probably not what you want. I do that with my minis because I am in 3D training, but I don't have the gonads to to that on my big ones yet.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 05:28 PM
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OK, I'll give it a shot in a couple of hours.

Edit: Never mind, couldn't wait. THAT DID IT! Thank you very much.
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Old Mar 04, 2013, 11:52 PM
Goooo!!!! Get to da choppa!!!!
United States, NC, Albemarle
Joined Jan 2013
523 Posts
Quote:
Sweet! Iff I recall you need to make the hole in the Funcopter 5mm to fit the shaft.
Yeah, I was looking into that. Not sure whether I will mod the FC head, or have a main shaft made to work instead. I also have access to bearings with the right ID for the FC main shaft, but then that means I'll need a new main gear for the belt tail... I'm trying to use the FC DD motor as well, so we'll see what works best I guess.

Glad you got the FP450 straightened out. That thing is SWEET!
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Old Mar 05, 2013, 12:01 AM
Sometimes alot/Sometimes not
Joined Dec 2009
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Guys-
I have read most of this thread today and a few this past weekend about doing this conversion. I bought a 450 a while back with the thoughts of going to build a 450CP trainer.
I have thought a lot about doing the FP, but with 2 small kids under 3, I just can't right now.
I will be putting my EXI 450 in the classifieds if anyone is interested in a good starting point for this build.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2#post24325682

I will be following this thread, you guys are filling a void in the RC heli world.
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