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Old Feb 08, 2013, 03:33 PM
Balsa&Tissue
payne9999's Avatar
United States, OR, Beaverton
Joined Jan 2011
2,350 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Allen View Post
Spoke to the guys at Horizon this morning and it seems the electric retracts I sent back work fine. It appears that there is a specific initialization procedure you must follow which, of course, isn't covered in the instruction manual. Although after speaking with the tech (Larry who was very helpful BTW) it seems Ron and I did all that.

In any case, received notice that they are on the way back to me today so when I get them Larry said to give him a call and he will walk me through whatever procedure is needed to get them to work. So hopefully early next week I can get the nose retract mounted and the nose of the fuselage done!!

Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
Brian,

If these are the servoless electric retracts they should just retract when you hit the switch and extend again when you move the switch back. I use them in two different planes and the reason I like them is they just work. I have some .60 size and some .25 size.

One question: Are you using a seperate BEC for servo power? These retracts can be power hungry and may stall if they don't receive enough current.
Dave
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 03:48 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Dave

Thanks for the note. That has been my experience with the E-Flite electric retracts also which is why this is so puzzling. My bench test setup uses an older Futaba 5UAP TX and Hitec 5 channel RX with an old Castle Pixie 7 ESC that I use for power off a 2S lipo. Have been wondering that maybe the BEC in the ESC just can not supply enough umph. When I get the retracts back I will see if I can scrounge up a 4 cell nicad pack and charge it up and try that. Don't have many of those left around anymore!!

Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 04:17 PM
Dr John
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Lake Placid, Florida
Joined Dec 2001
2,712 Posts
Looking good

Dr John
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 04:47 PM
a.k.a Maltone
Australia, NSW, Goulburn
Joined Jan 2005
6,628 Posts
Brian, I was interested to read of your E-Flite retract problems as I had sent mine back to the local agent and he replaced them. They work (didn't work) in exactly the same manner - 1 up, 1 down nothing moving etc...... Then I read (not in the notes) that the TX should move a couple of times from up to down and back (maybe to establish the limits representing the up/down control. Never missed a beat since!
I compounded my problems by using a servo tester rather than the tx (as I often do) and was just easing the control each side of centre to see what happened.
If an initialisation IS needed, why dont they print it in the notes

Probably depends on the tx too.......

Model is looking good - it is exactly the span of the Anson I am collecting stuff for (but will be about 1/2 the weight I bet )

Cheers
Pat
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 05:26 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Dr John

Thanks for the nice comments.

Pat,

Hows things down under? Hope all is well down your way.

You sound like you had the exact same situation I did. Any my conversation with the Horizon Tech sounds exactly like your situation also. So when I get them back I will see if the initialization procedure he talked about works!!

Any more news on your HE-111? She looks very nice!

Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 05:43 PM
Registered User
LuvEvolution7's Avatar
St.Catharines, Ontario
Joined Jan 2009
10,377 Posts
wow, she looks amazing. following with interest.

Rich
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Old Feb 09, 2013, 07:23 AM
Mulit-Platform Pilot
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United States, FL, Jacksonville
Joined Sep 2004
2,968 Posts
Interesting, I've used thier retracts a number of times in review planes and they were plug and play.

Make sure the channel is 100/100 on the end points and they have plenty of power.
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Old Feb 09, 2013, 03:57 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Greetings All

Well the wife had to work today (software delivery) so I had the whole day to myself. With the winds howling at about 35 knots flying outside was not an option. So I decided to get started on the left wing panel of the P-3.

Having worked out the few minor bugs while doing the right side panel, the left side went together fairly easily. Had to move the plans over to the right on my building board as the whole wing is longer than the board. After getting the plans setup and covering with some clear covering backing, I located the center section on the plans as accurately as possible and then rocked the wing over onto the left side and supported the right side panel with a piece of balsa block to keep things from moving. I then added scrap 1/16" balsa shim pieces under the spars.

I then made up the lower front spar cap from some 1/8" x 1/4" basswood and slid it in place all the way up to the center section. The area of the main spar that has the ply doublers is the same thickness as the spar cap is wide (1/4") so it was easy to get the spar centered on the spar cap. It was then tack glued in place in a few spots using thin CA.

As noted in the right side panel assembly the retract plate slots in the ply R4/R5 doublers need to be moved up so this was done prior to gluing them to the balsa ribs. It was much easier to do it this time!! For those that do not remember the slots in the rib doublers were not at the correct height to allow the retract plate to key into the slots in the front and rear spars. By moving the slots up about .045" on the doublers everything snapped into place.

Once the ribs and doublers were glued up and cured I started placing the ribs in place with R3 working my way out. Getting the ribs R4/R5 and the retract plate in is a bit of a challenge. I found the easiest way was to unpin the front and rear spars and then put a slight bevel on all the tabs to allow them to slip into place easily. When all the tabs and slots were engaged and the ribs in position on the front and rear spars the ribs and the retract plate were glued in place.

The 1/4" x 3/8" flap hinge doubler was slid in place from R5 to R9 positions. Something else I did this time was to add the 1/8" x 3/8" trailing edge piece at the end of the wing ribs. I did not do this the last time thinking I would snap it off as it has only a small glue surface with each of the ribs. Turns out I keep snapping the end of the ribs off on the right side panel so I decided to try something different this time.

The ribs R6 to R9 were added along with the 3/32" sq basswood stringer at the rear of the wing in the flap area. AT this point I decided to call it an afternoon.

Left to do is add the ribsR10 to R14, the upper spar cap and the upper and lower stringers. Then at that point I can make up the wing sheeting pieces and start to ponder the nacelle design. Also make up the flaps and ailerons. And ponder the retract installation.

We are progressing. Tough part, design of the nacelles and a power setup still to come.

Stay tuned.

Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 06:11 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Greetings All

Well I have managed to get the left wing panel completed. Added the remaining wing ribs, the sheet balsa leading edge and the wing stringers. I noted on the plan that rib R9 has a doubler R9A on the aft end of the rib that I forgot to add. I had to cut a notch in the rib doubler for the 1/4" x 3/8" flap hinge reinforcement piece and the notch in the rear spar where R9 and the doubler go was only 3/32" instead of the required 3/16" (R9 and R9A are each 3/32" think for a total of 3/16") so I opened up the slot and glued R9A in place against R9 on both wing panels.

There is also a balsa doubler A4 that gets glued to the rear side of the rear spar in the aileron area to provide some additional thickness for the aileron hinges. This runs from R9 to R14 and is the same height as the rear spar. So I glued A4 in place on each panel. I also added the 1/8" x 3/8" balsa trailing edge on the end of the ribs R3 to R9 (flap area) that I did not add when I originally built the right panel but did add when I built the left side. I am thinking that I might sheet the top side of the wing in the flap area as the glue joint between the trailing edge piece and the end of the ribs in the flap area is very small and will be subject to breakage by just looking at it the wrong way. That will be tomorrows project on both panels.

Retracts are supposed to arrive tomorrow so if they work as expected I will be able to get them mounted and the nose of the fuselage finished. Then I can make up the lower wing sheeting and start getting that in place. Then time to start seriously working on some nacelle designs and power options.

Will post some pictures tomorrow.

Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 02:36 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Greetings All

When we last left this adventure I had mostly completed the left wing panel. Added the top 1/8" x 1/4" spar cap and the rib doublers R9A to each rib R9. I then went back and added the 1/8" x 3/8" trailing edge piece that gets glued to the end of the R3 to R9 ribs in the flap area. The glue joint here from the rib to the TE is very small and since I have been snapping the ends of those ribs off on a regular basis (and thinking that with the TE added it would be even more so!!) I decided to add the upper 1/16" balsa sheeting to help support the rib ends and the TE. I made up the sheeting to go from the 3/32" stringer back to the TE. The sheeting sits flush against the TE so a bevel needs to be sanded into the rear edge of the sheeting to get it to lie flat. This is clearly shown on the rib section drawings. The sheeting was glued in place and when dry, the sheeting and TE were sanded and blended together. I then repeated the process on the left panel.

At this point I decided to start on the flaps and ailerons. The flap has an 1/8" x 3/8" TE which I stripped from some of the leftover stock from the laser cut sheets (always a god idea to hang on to the excess pieces after removing the cut parts, some good wood there!!) and the LE that is made up from a piece of 1/4" x 3/8" balsa and a vertical piece of 1/8" balsa. Noted a problem here as the plans call for this to be a piece of 1/8" x 1/2" balsa but it really needs to be 5/8" high. So I added an extra piece of 1/8" sq to make up the difference.

You pin down the TE and 1/4" x 3/8" LE pieces, add the ribs and the 1/8" vertical LE piece. Pop it off the board, add the 3/32" stringer on the underside and sheet the bottom surface with 1/16" balsa. A little sanding to true up the edges and get rid of any glue bumps and you have a roughly finished flap. The LE needs to be sanded to shape and the hinge bevel cut in along with the hinges. That will be the next thing to do then I will start on the left aileron.

A few pictures follow.

Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
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Last edited by Brian Allen; May 05, 2013 at 07:18 PM.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 03:11 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Greetings All

Well today I decided to get started on the left panel aileron. To those who have built one or more of Pats' designs the basic aileron construction is very similar. Balsa strip trailing edge, ribs and a thick leading edge that is angled to allow proper aileron movement. Well detailed on the plans. Only thing out of the ordinary for a Pat design is that the aileron is sheeted on both sides with 1/16" balsa.

After studying the plan I decided it would be easier to build the aileron with the bottom sheeting down first instead of adding it later. One of the things you need to be careful with on the ailerons on a typical Pat design is that until they are covered, they can be a bit fragile, especially at the TE. So I pinned down the 1/8" x 3/8" TE and glued the lower sheeting to in and pinned that down. The leading edge piece needs to be beveled on the lower edge to lay properly against the sheeting and also mate up with the ribs. The rib section that shows the aileron shows this clearly. So I used a sanding bar to bevel the underside of the LE and checked a bunch of times using the ens ribs AR9 and AR14 to make sure that the bevel was sufficient enough to engage the ribs tabs in the LE notches and to have the LE and ribs flat against the sheeting. So take your time here and make sure you have the bevel correct so all the ribs lie flat against the lower sheeting. As noted above, the rib section drawing shows this.

When the LE was beveled it was simply a matter of positioning the ribs and LE in place and gluing everything up. At this point I ran into a bit of a problem . The ribs AR9 and AR10 are notched on the bottom for the control horn mounting base A6. I looked a number of times and I could not find the pieces A6 nor did I find them on the parts sheet. So I made one up from a scrap piece of 1/8" lite ply and cut the horn slot in it. After a bit of trimming and sanding I slid it in place and glued it up.

The next step was to place some pieces of tape on the rib tops at the LE and sand the top of the LE flush with the profile of the ribs. This is to allow the top sheeting to lay flush up against the ribs and the LE. I then added some scrap 1/8" balsa blocking at the hinge locations to provide some additional gluing surface.

I then popped the aileron off the board, trimmed and sanded the lower sheeting to conform to the basic aileron shape. I then made up the upper sheeting. It requires a bevel to be sanded at the TE to allow it to sit flush against the TE. When this was done, the upper sheeting was glued in place and the edges sanded smooth. Voila, one aileron!!

I now have the left side flap and aileron so I need to make one of each for the right panel.

On a lighter note, my E-Flite retracts arrived back from Horizon yesterday. They replaced the original units with a new set. I took them out of the box and hooked them up and they worked fine. Major difference this time is that I used a 4 cell NiCad pack instead of the small ESC I had been using before. And they worked fine first time every time. I am starting to think that the reason I had a problem is that the BEC in the small ESC could not provide enough power to cycle the retracts. When we tested the retracts on the other radios we used the ESC for power in all cases. So I can be quite the doofus at time I guess. In any case I have a working set of retracts so now I can figure out how to get them installed, particularly in the fuselage nose and get that finished up.


Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 03:00 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Greetings All

Just a short post today. Managed to frame up the right side aileron and flap this afternoon so just about all of the basic wing framing, sans sheeting, is about down. Need to ponder the retract installation and get that in and then make up the servo mounts for the ailerons and flaps. Then some heavy study and design work on the motor mounting and nacelle design.

Have been fooling with the E-Flite retracts. They seem to work well now that I know what I am doing!!

Brian Allen

Veni Vidi Volavi

I came I saw I flew
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Last edited by Brian Allen; May 05, 2013 at 07:20 PM.
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 05:20 PM
May P-3's FLY FOREVER!!
P3_AOC_MAGGIE's Avatar
United States, FL, Jacksonville
Joined Jul 2011
66 Posts
Thank you so much!!!!

Thank you so much for all the photos........ My build has taken a step back for life in general.... Ah.......Oh well..... But, these will help me SO MUCH when I start again.


Jim Lamagdeleine


Call me sometime when you'd like to chat.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 06:41 PM
Official Boat Bum
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United States, NV, Reno
Joined Mar 2000
7,007 Posts
The balsa work is still so very refreshing to see, a very nice build so far. Nice job, I like the construction of this model. Interesting to see the flat bottom airfoil - it sure builds nice and easy right on the board without a jig or cradle setup.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:41 PM
Veni Vidi Volavi
Sterling, VA
Joined Jan 2002
2,443 Posts
Greetings All

Eddie, thanks for the kind comments. So far it has been a relatively trouble free build. Typical of Pats' designs.

With a working set of retracts I finally decided to tackle getting the nose retract installed. After some hopefully careful measuring I decided that the E-Flite retract had to be mounted 3/4" further up than the Robart unit Pat had speced in originally. In addition, the unit needs to be moved over to one side about 3/4" or so due to the coils in the nose gear strut. Otherwise the gear leg would not be on the centerline of the fuselage.

In any case I decided to keep the basic structure as Pat had designed and just do a little chopping and slashing on it to get the unit to fit. I added some pieces of 1/8" basswood to the two gear mount formers to make up a platform for the gear. I then added some 1/8" aircraft ply over them to provide some reinforcement. I then added some 3/4" triangle stock for form a glue base. I then made up mounting rails from pieces of 1/8" x 3/4" aircraft ply, laminated to make a 1/4" total thickness.

I then made some mods to the original mounting plate to allow the retract unit to be removed and installed from the bottom of the fuselage, taking the offset in the nose gear into account. The two formers and the plate were then glued together with some triangle stock added for some reinforcement. The 1/4" thick mounting rails were then epoxied in place and when dry, the retract unit was located , mounting holes drilled and blind nuts added. I used 8/32 socket head cap screws and blind nuts as these matched the holes in the retract frame.

I then used a Dremel tool with a cut off wheel and cut the nose gear leg down to the approximate length. After some fiddling and adjusting, the retract mount assembly was epoxied into the forward frame.

Former 2B had to be cut down a bit due to a cross brace that was supporting the retract assembly. I glued a strip of 1/8" x 1/4" balsa to the former at the location and trimmed it and glued that former in place. I then added some of the bottom stringers, from basswood, as this will be a mjor pickup point of the model.

Next step is to add former 1B and finish the stringers. Then I need to ponder a nose gear steering setup.

Pictures follow, they do a better job of explaining the above.

Brian Allen

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I came I saw I flew
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