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Old Jan 29, 2013, 09:17 AM
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Norfolk, England
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Glenn,
I still don't understand why you're treating the printed tissue before applying it to the model (test frame). When I spoke of steaming the tissue, I refered to it already on the model. Since I remeber the instructions talking about apply wet silkspan - how I did it on my N11 all those years ago - I doubt it will shrink enough to badly warp anything. Especially if you pin the frames down while it's doing what it does. Just like you'd do while dope dries.
Theoretically, and I do mean theoretically, cellulose based stuff like dope shouldn't affect water based ink if it's sprayed on. A brush might drag loose ink, but spraying shouldn't hurt anything.

Pete
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:23 AM
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Pete, honestly I completely forgot you mentioned using steam!
Ok, have another thing to try before giving up on this. Tonight I'll print, apply, STEAM, and coat. We'll see.... Now where is that tea kettle....

What I have found out with all the lacquer products I have tried is they shrink very little. When the lacquer is sprayed on, the tissue goes limp, then as the coating dries it tightens up to the same tension it was before coating.

Think I need to quit screwing around with this and just get some Sig dope.
Nitrate or Lite Coat Butyrate?
Which one shrinks, then stops shrinking? Anyone?

Patric, That is a water based product and would bleed the water soluble inks used in the ink jet. Since I think it's the lacquer used to fix the ink that is causing the shrinkage problem it would need to be eliminated and the ink would not survive the water based coating. Maybe if it were sprayed on in light coats?
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 01:17 PM
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You want to use nitrate dope. Butyrate dope is just like the Duracell bunny, it just keeps going and going. In the old days nitrate dope was used as a base coat and butyrate dope was used as the last couple of coats because it is fuel proof, whereas, nitratate dope is not. Thankfully, we don't have to worry about that with our electric powered models.

FWIW, I have brushed alcohol, lacquer and dope onto printed tissue to shrink it, and non of them smeared the printing with the brushing process.

Larry
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 01:26 PM
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Thanks Larry. That's what I thought.
But does nitrate stop shrinking like Aerogloss? I've been searching around and there is a lot of conflicting information out there.
Would one use the non-taughtening nitrate for these small tissue covered models? Seems there is some shrink to even the non-taughtening varieties.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 01:31 PM
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Nitrate's shrink isn't as agressive as butyrate's shrink and nitrate does stop shrinking. Nitrate is also available in non-shrinking formula.

Larry
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:42 PM
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Thanks.
Guess I need to look around for some nitrate. I would rather get a small can of Sig to try out before investing in a larger quantity of Randolf's.
Maybe for this project I'll try a steam shrink then coat with thinned Aerogloss. Then save the dope experiments for another time. I went through this with the Stuka and the FW190 and I'm getting tired of failures!
Glenn
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:56 PM
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I wish you luck. Not to sound disparaging, but I've been gone through pretty much the same process as you are doing as regards printed tissue and I never found a satisfactory solution. But I'm sure I didn't try every possibility, so if you find a process that works, be sure to share it with us.

Larry
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:06 PM
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Glenn - I had a successful time covering my Se5a with Tissue - Thread here...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1686110
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shnokey View Post
Glenn - I had a successful time covering my Se5a with Tissue - Thread here...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1686110
What kind of tissue did you use? I'm asking because...

Last night's tissue experiment was also a failure.
I stripped the test frame. About the test frame, it is a copy of the kit horizontal stabilizer without the hinge spar.
Printed ANOTHER copy of the tail graphics. Applied the uncoated tissue with the glue stick. Let the glue stick dry for about an hour thinking maybe the shrinking tissue is sliding in the soft glue resulting in a loose covering.
I steamed the tissue until slightly damp, the tissue was just getting the baggy look. Let it dry and.....
Still not tight! That's where I left it. I was so aggravated I wanted to just wad the thing into a ball and throw it across the room!!!!

I'm starting to think I'm being had here. Maybe part of the problem is the tissue itself. I'm using domestic gift box tissue. The sh__ just doesn't want to shrink! I think tonight I'll spray it with water. It will ruin the ink, but I want to see if the stuff shrinks at all.

I had this same problem with the Easybuilt tissue when I tried using it on the FW190. That stuff did the exact same thing, the shrink is very weak.
I went back to Guillows kit tissue. It shrinks nice and tight.

Glenn
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:15 AM
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I had a lot of challenges with tissue until i used this: http://easybuiltmodels.com/ebl.htm I printed on the white tissue, attached with the Purple UHU glue stick, wet with water until it pulled tight and then sprayed with a MIST coat of Krylon Rattle Can Clear.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 09:49 AM
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Norfolk, England
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Glenn,
It does sound as if your tissue is very different to the the stuff I used. That was just card store stuff bought in a pack of half dozen sheets, but it shrunk enough to warp my wing panels into prop blades suitable for a big indoor rubber job.
Maybe the humidity there is a contributing factor too?

Pete
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:22 AM
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That is the easybuilt tissue I tried to use on my FW190. I couldn't get the stuff to shrink and stay shrunk. Finally gave up and used the Guillows tissue which is actually pretty good stuff. Did you laser print? Or use some sort of waterproof ink?

Pete, It's Hallmark's version of gift box tissue. I figured it was worth a try but doesn't seem to shrink much at all.
About the humidity, this was a concern and I have always stored my tissue in the air conditioned/humidity controlled house.

I have covered a lot of models in tissue in the nearly 50 years I've been doing this hobby. I have always had great results when using the right tissue and good old Aerogloss dope. Now things have changed and I'm trying to adapt but not having much success.
"Domestic tissue" that is made in China???
"Dope" that isn't really dope at all, but some unobtainium lacquer product and is NLA to boot!
Search the net for info on dopes and find a ton of conflicting information.. Nitrate stops shrinking, nitrate never stops shrinking, only non taughtening stops shrinking, no it doesn't, yes it does! It's butyrate that never stops...
Non taughtening shrinks a little, no it doesn't, yes it does!,,on and on... Starting to sound like Monty Python's argument clinic!.
This is getting really annoying to say the least!!!
Glenn
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:31 AM
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Glenn - I used an Epson Photo Printer (inkjet) with Epson Inks - they did not smear at all when wet - I had to let them dry a day or two before I tried to final shrink it. I put the paper on dry with the UHU stick, pulled all the wrinkles out that I possibly could and let the glue stick dry overnight. I misted the paper (light mist) with water and let dry overnight - it was pulled nice and tight (as you can see) then sprayed a distant mist coat of Krylon over the paper - it started to "pucker" slightly after the Krylon, but tightened up when dry -
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 11:28 AM
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Interesting, water resistant inks.
I tried misting alcohol on my test print and the genuine (read expensive) HP ink ran.
I didn't let the glue stick dry over night! I figured an hour would be good enough. I did notice the glue getting sticky around the edges as I steamed the tissue. Once dry, the tissue seemed to be the same or maybe a little less tight than when I started.
So either the tissue slid in the softened glue (doubtful since the edges were wrapped), or it just doesn't shrink worth a crap.
I'm leaning toward it's crappy made in China tissue.

It's really looking like I'm going to have to stick with what I know works for now. I'll order some Guillows tissue and use up my private stock of Aerogloss. I have about half a bottle left and should have enough to finish this model.

I also have easybuilt domestic tissue in olive and creme. I could just say screw it and use that and be done with it, but there's no challenge in doing that!

I wonder if they have any tissue in Michael's Crafts that would work???
Glenn
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 11:57 AM
MPP
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Love that picture Glenn, Don't know if it would help at all but I pull the tissue tight and seal the glue stick edges with a heat iron. It gets a good hold relatively well then I go over the contact areas with WBPU. I use water mixed with windex to shrink further and go over it with the heat gun holding in any washout or potential pretzel areas. Still I think you are back to good old fashion Dope in the end. However certainly enjoying the lab experiments and Monty Python references. If you find the cure you will have to register it with the ministry of silly Walks . M
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