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Old Jan 25, 2013, 08:43 AM
MPP
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Danbury CT (DXR)
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Looks good, I am a glue stick fan myself. Hope the shrinking works out. If a bottle of Aerogloss is all you need to make use of the excellent printed tissue, I would be happy to send down a bottle complements of the frozen North. A-waiting your results.

Oops results in, offer still good.

Mark
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 05:11 PM
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glewis's Avatar
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Thanks Mark, in light of my discovery when I got home today I might just take you up on that offer....

Oh Snap!
Got home and picked up the test stabilizer to take it for another coat of lacquer and what I found was a saggy tissue mess.
Last night the lacquer seemed to draw the tissue up nice and tight. After it sat last night and today,,, it went limp...
This is no better than the gloss Deft I used on my Stuka. Tight, loose. Tight, loose.
I put a thick coat of lacquer on the test piece just to see what happens, but I'm not holding out much hope for this material.
This suks...
Now I have a quart of the stuff I won't be able to use either. I'm starting a freaking lacquer collection.
Guess I could try the automotive lacquer next.
The good news is the printed tissue looks pretty good.
Bad news is it looks like I'm back to Aerogloss until I can find a suitable replacement...
Glenn
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 03:43 PM
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Here is the sagged tissue mess. The tissue has a soft feel to it, just like the saggy stuff on my Stuka and unlike the hard plastic feel finish the Areo-gloss has.

Just stopped in the auto parts store and picked up a spray can of Rustoleum automotive clear acrylic lacquer. I sprayed a coat on the messed up test piece just to see what happens. The stuff smells exactly the same as Krylon clear but costs twice as much.

Waiting for it to dry to see the results.

Glenn
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 07:50 PM
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Well this looks promising. Sprayed on a light coat of the auto lacquer. Hard to get a light coat, it comes out of the can fast and with a very wide spray. This was sprayed right over the Minwax stuff and it seems to have pulled the tissue tight.
I've been here before, only to be disappointed later.
If this stuff works, I'll go back and get a quart so I can thin as much as I like and brush it on. The quart is about 25 bucks, if it works, that's a bargain!

I also stopped in the LHS for some Sig dope. All he had was the butyrate fuel proof stuff that will twist this model into a pretzel...

Glenn
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 08:25 PM
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Guess there isn't much interest in dope substitutes.
The experiments will continue until I find a substitute or figure out how to adapt an existing dope product that won't turn a light framework into a warped mess after spending time in the sauna garage.

After spending time out in the shop and in the house the half stab sprayed with the Rustoleum lacquer is still tight. I wet the tissue and water beads up on the surface. I rubbed the water on the tissue trying to get a reaction but it resisted the water completely. So far, so good.

Since the test tissue had already been coated with Minwax the experiment isn't complete. I'll strip the frame and recover with plain tissue. Alcohol shrink then apply the Rustoleum and test that.
Glenn
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Old Jan 27, 2013, 08:34 PM
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United States, VA, Stafford
Joined Jun 2009
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I am curious to see what you come up with as I had considered printed tissue before but with all the same concerns you are faced with now. Good luck and keep us informed.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 07:15 AM
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Gulf Breeze, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glewis View Post
Guess there isn't much interest in dope substitutes.
Yes there is! I'm losing track of the various options you've tried, so am looking forward to your final determination.

Gene K
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 07:29 AM
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Brighton Ont. Canada
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me too!!!
Dave
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 08:11 AM
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Thanks guys, there has to be a solution that will work on my models in the tropical climate here.

At this point the automotive lacquer looks promising.
Since my test spray was onto pre-coated tissue, I really need to start over to get the true result.

I first tested the spray to see how much paint was going to come out, then held the can about a foot from the surface. The spray came out of the can in such a blast it was impossible to get a light coat. Not nearly far enough, oops...
As soon as I realized how much paint was hitting the target,,, it was too late. The surface was wet almost to the point of runs and it dried with a mottled appearance.

I suspect the mottled appearance was due to the new lacquer sitting on top of the Minwax lacquer and not melting into it. That tells me the two coatings use a different solvent and could be why it seemed to shrink and the Minwax didn't.
The next test will determine if the auto lacquer will indeed shrink the tissue when the solvents in the wet coat soften the previous coat like dope does.

Last night I stripped half the covering off the test piece. Used water to loosen the glue stick. It worked, but I had to get it so wet the glue joints started to fail. This too is good news. If the glue stick is as tough as the glue used to assemble the model, I hope to not have any problems with the covering coming off..

Think I'll completely strip the test piece and print another tissue sheet. I'll follow the same procedure as before and compare the results using the auto lacquer.

If this coating actually works we may have stumbled on a dope substitute that is cheaper than the seemingly NLA Aero-gloss and is readily available at the auto parts store. Well,,, available to those of us that don't live in California where even cow farts are regulated....
Glenn
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by glewis View Post
The [auto lacquer] spray came out of the can in such a blast it was impossible to get a light coat.
Sounds like you have an airbrush, so maybe just decant the paint into a jar and control the spray with the airbrush?

Gene K
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:32 AM
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Guess I could do that, or decant and brush it on like I do with dope.
I wanted to try the spray can first since it was cheaper and easier. If this stuff works, I'll get a quart can and the proper thinner. I can thin for airbrushing or brush application. Didn't expect the paint to come out of the spray can like a hurricane!
Glenn
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 02:18 PM
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Moab, Utah, USA
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Hold the can upside down and depress the nozzle to bleed off some of the propellent pressure without disseminating lacquer. If after you do that, you run out of propellent before you run out of lacquer, you can punch a couple of holes in the can to drain the rest of the lacquer.

Larry
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 02:27 PM
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That's a good idea Larry.
I think it's the nozzle that could be the problem. Maybe I'll have a look around the paint cabinet and see if I can find a different one that fits.
Doesn't matter that much really, if this material works I'll by a quart of the stuff then I can thin to the desired consistency and spray or brush.
A quart will last me a long time!
Glenn
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 08:25 AM
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Well, I'm kinda pissed. Actually, I'm really pissed!!!

Last night I stripped the tissue off the test frame. Printed a new graphic. Sprayed a VERY light coat of automotive lacquer on the tissue then covered the frame. Shrunk the tissue with alcohol but it didn't seem to shrink very much? Rut row....
I hoped the lacquer coat would shrink it the rest of the way. Wrong! It looks just as bad as the Minwax covered frame did.
I don't know what to do now....

On the previous attempt I used alcohol to shrink the tissue that had a light coat of Minwax sprayed on to fix the ink. It didn't shrink very much, so I tried water to see if the ink would bleed. It didn't, and the tissue tightened up a bit more. I coated it with Minwax and the tissue relaxed and stayed there. Then I top coated that with the Rustoleum automotive lacquer and it tightened up nicely.
To confirm my suspicion tonight I'll strip and cover it again. I'll shrink it with water this time and then coat with the auto lacquer and see what happens.

Think I know what is causing the problem, the lacquer sprayed on to fix the ink is preventing the tissue from shrinking. As a last resort, I can try shrinking uncoated printed tissue with alcohol, I suspect the ink will bleed but won't know until I try. I really don't see any way around this and might just have to abandon the printed tissue idea altogether. I can't live with a model covered in wrinkly tissue... I have been down this path a bunch of times now and I'm getting tired of wasting my precious hobby time on this.
Maybe I'm trying too many new things at once here, Maybe stick with the printed tissue and use Aerogloss and hunt for a replacement later?

Sig nitrate or the low shrink butyrate? Which one shrinks some and then STOPS shrinking?

There is one good thing that came from these experiments, attaching tissue with glue stick seems to work a lot better than I expected. The tissue is very difficult to remove from the frame, even more difficult than the thinned white glue I had been using. I have to get the wood really wet to get the glue to let go, so wet my glue joints start failing. The glue stick is a lot easier to use and gives a few seconds to position the tissue before it grabs.
I haven't had any problems with the tissue edges coming loose on models I used thinned white glue on. I might just try the purple stuff and see if I like that too.

Glenn
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 08:25 AM
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United States, MI, Hillsdale
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has anyone tried http://www.deluxematerials.com/products_building.html
eze dope? I've only used it once and brushed it on but it seemed to work ok.
Next test is to thin and airbrush it on.
Its distributed by Horizon so most hobby shops should be able to order it.
Patric
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