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Old Feb 15, 2013, 06:50 AM
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Eric, I don't know if they would be compatible or not. My guess would be no.
What I have read is Aerogloss is an automotive acrylic lacquer. This would explain why it stops shrinking, unlike the traditional dope products. I could use a nitrate from Brodak or Randolf's but then I would have to start over on the experiments adding plastisizer to the dope to control the shrinkage, or using the non taughtening versions and trying to figure out how to get a nice tight covering job.

As a youth I worked at the Tampa airport. There used to be a large WWII hangar there where they did small aircraft maintenance. One day I smelled dope fumes so I talked to the AP guys and told them about my hobby. They would save me gallon cans of Randolf's Nitrate when they were almost empty. There was always enough left in the cans to fill 3 or 4 Aerogloss bottles. I used the stuff on my stunt and control line models covered in silk or silkspan. Man did that stuff shrink! Sure smelled good though.....
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 07:11 AM
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The results are in...

Well, as we all know, looks can be deceiving.
I went out to the shop this morning to check the test pieces. The results were a bit surprising.

The test subject covered in Guillows tissue has shrunk up to a nice tight surface even after soaking in the humid shop overnight. After 2 coats of thinned dope on one side and 2 of thinned lacquer on the opposite, it looks to need at least two more coats of each to fill the tissue pores. One coat of full strength dope would do it. Maybe I'll go ahead and buy a can of the auto lacquer and try that unthinned next.
The tissue is opaque enough that I might try printed graphics and alcohol shrinking with this material.

The second piece is the surprise. While much more translucent than the Guillows tissue, the Celebrate stuff from Michael's is drum tight. It also appears to be completely sealed and has a slight sheen to it. It actually seems tighter and smoother than the Guillows stuff, though not as strong. However I'm afraid it will not work for the printed tissue graphics over an open frame, it is way too translucent. This will be a good tissue to paint. The paint will add considerable strength to the tissue.

The other result is there seems to be no difference it the tissue tension between the doped and auto lacquered surfaces on either tissue sample. The test of the white glue and glue stick heat activated adhesives also looks to be a success. This is really good news and it looks like we are finally getting some useful results!

Glenn
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 07:41 AM
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. However I'm afraid it (Celebrate It tissue) will not work for the printed tissue graphics over an open frame, it is way too translucent.
I've printed on that tissue with both inkjet and laser printers with great success. Why do you think it won't work?

It does get transparent with a coating, for example, Minwax, and that's why I like it for tissue decals - almost makes the "carrier film" disappear.

If you'd like, drop me a PM and I'll send some of my favorite tissue to test - the one from CVS.

Gene K
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 07:53 AM
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I think it will be way too translucent. Right now it looks sort of like wax paper with splotches that are more transparent that that. Over a white substrate it would look great.

Since I'm considering trying printing on the Guillows tissue it won't be a big deal to try the Michael's stuff too just to see. Heck, I've been wrong before and could be now too!

Looks like I need to make a couple more test frames. Good thing I have a large box of scrap wood...

Thanks for the offer, but if that tissue works well I'll have to wait all year until they stock holiday supplies!

I'm really stoked the automotive lacquer works so well! Thanks Fuzz!!!

Glenn
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 09:18 AM
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Great news, Glenn! Who'd have thought you could keep the suspense going for so long!

I've used the Michael's coloured tissue before, but only applied over a silkspan covering (Guillow's, as it happened) to add colour trim. If it's strong enough for covering itself, that's good news, 'cause it's cheap (like me).

I wonder if it's lighter than the Guillow's silkspan? Perhaps only by a couple of grams per square foot, not really enough to impact a small RC model, but maybe enough of a difference to be significant for small free flight models, especially once paint is factored in.

That's the problem with scientific enquiry; it usually leads to more questions than answers...

Steve
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 12:56 PM
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The weight of the 3 tissues is a good question.
I only have one sheet of the kit tissue and I already cut a chunk out to cover the test piece. When my order from Guillows arrives, I'll weigh them and post the results.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 09:59 AM
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Well guys, I've reached a point of indecision.
I would really like to continue with the printed tissue experiments,,, but..

I have plenty of the 'Celebrate" tissue that shrinks well but goes very translucent when coated.
I have just enough Guillows tissue to cover the model. One partial sheet is nowhere near enough to print all the graphics on due to the way the graphics have to be arranged to fit the printer.
Guess I could wait until my order of Guillows tissue arrives and try printing on that, but it will take at least 3 sheets to print everything.

The last option is cover in the Guillows tissue then apply the printed tissue on top of that. This would result in good color contrast of the finished covering.
The downsides would be the weight of double covering and difficulty of application to get a smooth surface. Guess the graphics tissue could be cut and overlapped in areas needed to get it to lay down smooth without shrinking.

This would require more experimentation and frankly, I'm about experimented out and am ready to get this one done!

Glenn
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 05:00 PM
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I went to the auto parts store to get a quart can of the Rustoleum lacquer.
Turns out the stuff in the quart cans is 'spray ready' and is pre-thinned to the viscosity of water.
They also had Duplicolor lacquer in quart cans but it too is pre-thinned.
The lacquer in the spray can seems thicker, so guess I'll have to decant it into bottles.
Glenn
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 07:05 PM
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guess I'll have to decant it into bottles
Good Grief, does it never end? You should change your name to Job!

Eric
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 07:33 PM
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I don't give up easily. Guess it's an engineer thing....
I might just wait until the Guillows tissue gets here and try printing the graphics onto it. If it doesn't work, then it's paint and decals.
Glenn
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 08:23 AM
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Received my order of tissue from Guillows yesterday.
I have two more experiments to try.

Experiment #1. Dope the printed gift tissue onto the pre-shrunk and doped Guillows tissue. The idea is the Guillows is not too translucent and will act as a white base. This will add some weight but I think it won't be much more than a coat of paint.
I need to take some pics of the doped gift and guillows tissues to show the difference in translucency.

Experiment #2. Print directly onto the Guillows tissue. Attach it with the heat activated white glue method described earlier. Shrink the tissue with alcohol and dope it with the rustoleum auto lacquer.

Have a lot of non hobby stuff (chores) to do today, maybe I can get to these experiments later.

Glenn
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 09:49 AM
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 10:00 AM
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Glenn,

If we gave awards for "STICK-TO-IT-NESS", out here on RCG's you would be on the top of the list...

Good luck with the latest test iteration.

Bill
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 12:17 PM
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I hate to give up, did you see Pete Rake's printed tissue on his Sperry Monoplane? It looks really good!
After these last two attempts, I'm done screwing around and if the results are not good enough, it's cover and paint time!

I have learned a thing or two out of all this so it was a worthwhile effort.
Most important is we have discovered that Rustoleum Automotive Acrylic Lacquer is a locally available and inexpensive dope substitute.
Thanks to Fuzz for telling us that Aerogloss is not dope, but auto lacquer. That put me on the trail....
Glenn
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Old Feb 24, 2013, 08:47 PM
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Today I started with experiment #2.
Printed onto the Guillows tissue. Removed it from the carrier sheet and let the ink dry for over an hour.

While the tissue was drying, I made yet another horizontal stab test frame.(#5)

Coated the test frame with white glue and while that dried, cut out the tissue.
As soon as the tissue was cut from the main sheet, the graphics curled into a tube. Humm, that's odd, none of the other tissues I printed onto did that.

Ironed the tissue onto the frame. The tissue was misted with alcohol and allowed to... Shrink? Well not really. Wet it a few more times and it finally did shrink enough without bleeding the ink.

Took it out to the shop and just like the other tissues, it went limp.....
Sprayed it with alcohol again and let it dry out in the shop. It shrunk up ok but still not really tight.

Put a coat of lacquer on and the tissue relaxed, and stayed that way after the lacquer dried.

Somehow the printed tissue just won't work for me. Could be the ink, humidity or a number of things. Bottom line is, I'm done. I tried, hard, but after weeks of this I have just had enough.

The sound you hear is me throwing in the towel. I give up.

I'm covering this sumbitch with Guillows tissue, water shrinking it then coating it with lacquer and painting it. Time to go back to what I know works and get this one done!

Now I will go back to getting the airframe ready for covering. Still have to hinge the surfaces and make up a tail skid.

Glenn
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