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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:22 PM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
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HI Denny
The Senior Pattern Association allow electrics in, and yes, I reckon the stalwarts of RC aeromodelling would be fine with electrics. Ken Willard - he was the sort of guy who'd have dove straight into electric power like we have now.

http://www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/pattern1.htm is a fascinating website I tripped over recently. One that caught my eye was the Skylark Twin, a handy sized model that I recall vaguely as being a kit model that could be built as a twin or a single. A clubmate in the first club I flew with when I learned to fly RC had one with a couple of 15 glows in it. How that kit got to the north of Scotland, I have no idea!

Not quite as slinky as Mark's SS twin, but a neat looking model all the same and it would electrocute pretty well, I reckon.

I honestly did look at fitting a trike gear to the K-E-os. It would have meant a glow weight of firewall in the 'old' location with a motor extension, plus using either two servos for rudder and steerable nosewheel or a hefty rudder servo, plus drawing up, cutting out and fitting the torque rod gear mounts for the wing mounted mains. That, having to source a motor that would turn a small-ish prop and that a trike gear would not sit well on our grass runway drove me back to my usual taildragger gear.

D
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:34 PM
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Long Valley, NJ, USA
Joined Dec 2001
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Dereck,

That's one pretty twin. Love that color scheme. Back in the day it might nave been silk and dope - and no mufflers.

Nice job on making the K-E-os motor mount the same as the firewall - no ungainly spacers in this bird.

Paul
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:42 PM
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Dennis Sumner's Avatar
United States, MI, Canton
Joined Sep 2002
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Dereck,

That twin looks pretty nice! It would sure make a nice sport twin project! No pun on Mark's but the KISS method without retracts and a tail dragger would make it easier.

You bring up some good points with respect to moving the firewall "back" for the nose gear mounting. I am with your thinking on moving firewalls forward to eliminate long spacers.....I will need to look at the plans when I get them...maybe firewall in normal location for nose strut and make a plywood box to move motor forward? I have even thought of placing a separate servo at the firewall for steering and keep rudder servo in back...

Sorry to rant and hi-jack your thread...

Denny
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 05:52 PM
Wanted for breaking OHM's law
Dennis Sumner's Avatar
United States, MI, Canton
Joined Sep 2002
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Dereck,

I saw this thread the other day and just found the Skylark and Skylark Twin update...

http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1843
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 07:25 PM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
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Originally Posted by dsumner View Post
Dereck,

I saw this thread the other day and just found the Skylark and Skylark Twin update...

http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=1843
Now there's a surprise!

Wouldn't even have to build a 'scale model' - just your normal electrocution, couple of 10 or 15 wizzyrounds off a large-ish 3S. Could even stand running on props that match the trike gear. The one my clubmate built was finished in the red/black kit scheme too - probably dope/paint too, he was a good builder but didn't fly it very often apparently.

At least with this structure, it wouldn't take that much to trike-ify it. Those ailerons look tiny in chord though - easy build, just cut them out of the wing TE, but their effectiveness, especially with all that dihedral - I dunno.

Can I please lose the rubber bands and bolt the wing on, please, pretty please?

By the way - who else noticed that the twin plan is missing A Fairly Important Bit - the tailplane Those wondering if they can beat Denny and me to an electrocution, you need to download both the single and twin engined version plans - the tailplane and much else is on the single engine plan sheet.

D
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 07:50 PM
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starcad's Avatar
Tucson, AZ, USA
Joined Sep 2000
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Nice looking build Dereck, I'll be following this one for sure. BTW, Gerry Yarrish the designer of the CAD KAOS can be found on Face Book. He's an editor at Model Airplane News. Gerry is a very prolific modeler and would love to follow your build. Give him a shout on FB an provide a link to your build. I'm looking forward to your interpretation of the design. That's what makes this hobby so great, different ideas and ways to achieve the same ending.
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Last edited by starcad; Jan 16, 2013 at 08:11 PM.
Old Jan 16, 2013, 09:13 PM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
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Cheers Starcad - I apparently have a BookFacial account, but lack my Spousal Unit's familiarity with that sort of thing. I hang around on RCG instead...

Am fervently hoping I can get this bird up and flying before the Chicago flying season arrives. Even though I missed its era, I have always liked the look of these pattern birds. A fascinating aspect is how many of them came out in competition 60 and sports flying 40 sizes, sometimes even 20 sized ones - New Era III, for one example.

Tomorrow, I get to finish converting the BDF into a temporary for SU's youngest. WOW!

D
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:45 AM
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You should do fine Dereck from what I seen of your builds. Just remember on this one to include that I believe it was 3/32" wash-out in the tips to help avoid that tendency of tip stall. One of the other things we found out was to sweep the vertical tail making for better stall turns. I through out the mold I had for the Kaos about a year ago as I was cleaning out the man cave but had it over 20 years and popped around 25 planes from it for the guys around Tucson.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 10:42 AM
Visitor from Reality
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Joined Dec 1996
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Interesting about the washout. All the symmetrical wings I've built had zero in that dept. Though a certain bearded gentleman who was flying big aerobatic electrics before most of us could build an electric that could loop favoured washout because it made snap rolls from inverted easier... I will hide in a closet next week seeking peace from SU's small grand daughters and contemplate this matter.

Not claiming I've seen every Kao-tic derivative, but all I have seen had vertical rudder hinge lines. Have heard of the swept rudder hinge line, but want to build this so maybe someone, someday will say 'isn't that a Kaos?' without prompting. Could be wrong - two of the Bridi kits have completely different tailplane placement - one has the tailplane hinge on the rudder hinge line, the other has the elevator TE level with the rudder hinge line.

Ever get the feeling that every model built in that era, for competition or sport flying, was different, never mind what it started as?

Dereck
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 03:35 PM
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I know what you mean Dereck. Back in the later part of the 60's there was a big discussion on swept wings. That led to triple taper wings and '0' dihedral on the top surface using the triple on the bottom as dihedral. The many different designs made things interesting and I wanted them all.
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 07:44 PM
Registered User
Oakland township, Michigan
Joined Jun 2005
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Hello Dereck,

I think that back in those days, planes were built with a little of wash out to keep them from tip stalling during the landing approach. I have a kit for a Sig Kobra which calls for washout on a symmetrical wing. I was thinking about building it straight. My two pattern planes have pretty heavy tapers and tip stalling has not been an issue. Maybe someone who knows more about this will chime in.

Teo
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Old Jan 17, 2013, 08:46 PM
Visitor from Reality
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The only aerobatic model with a zero washout symmetrical section wing I've had that had a propensity to tip-stall was my Great Planes CAP232. A 60" span model at six pounds, aided by a 42 ounce nicad battery, it was best not to think about snap rolling. In all fairness, I have heard of this being a trait of many CAP models. A clubmate from my days in England designed a very nice CAP20 and ended up with a 25% enlarged tailplane to cure excess snapping.

Better not mention that my first OD aerobatic model went through three ever longer fuselages to cure an inability to get out of flat spins... It had a symmetrical section and parallel chord wing too.

One other route to peace of mind with a tapered wing of symmetrical section is to increase the % thickness from root to tip - 12 to 14% sounds reasonable.

If I had the spare time, a pair of wings, one zero washout, one with an amount of washout, on the same fuselage could demonstrate a difference.

A fascinating subject indeed, and the more comments or leads to info, the better. Before I build my wing, even better!

D
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 06:34 AM
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Tip stalling wasn't an issue when 16%-18% sections were common to fit the servos then available. No washout then.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dereck View Post
... I will hide in a closet next week seeking peace from SU's small grand daughters and contemplate this matter.
Dereck
So after next week you'll finally come out of the closet?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:49 PM
Visitor from Reality
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Joined Dec 1996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWRIGHT View Post
So after next week you'll finally come out of the closet?
That was S-O-O-O bad...

D
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