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Old Jan 05, 2013, 04:00 PM
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Canada, BC, Terrace
Joined Feb 2010
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Setup to Hover at midstick or 3/4 stick and switching back and forth from Scale to 3D

Hey guys I was wondering if you guys set up your scale brids to hover around midstick or if your following the 3D way of thinking with zero pitch at midstick and hovering at around 3/4 stick. Since starting I have always set up my helis to have zero pitch at midstick, but after fiddling for the past year with an A109 with a 4 blade head it seems like I am wasting a lot of servo movment in an area of the stick range that is never used. If I eliminate some of my negative pitch by having my servo arms so the blades are around 4-5 degrees positive at midstick that leaves me half the stick range for the area I do all my flying in giving me a finer control over my collective pitch.

Second part of my question is do those of you who fly with your scale ships hovering at midstick and your 3d machines at 3/4 stick have any problems switching back and forth between the two?

Thanks guys

Ryan
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Old Jan 05, 2013, 05:59 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
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Mississauga, Ont., Can.
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It's really up to yourself. I fly with less negative pitch than positive pitch but I do that with the pitch curves and not with the setup. I have gotten used to flying with the stick slightly above centre (I am talking one index point above centre according to all my transmitters) with all my scale and 3D helicopters. It still gives me lots of range and I don't need to worry about switching back and forth as I do test fly, repair, and still own a few 3D helis. I understand the reasons for having a slightly greater range for the same amount of pitch but in the long run, it is still the same movement of the blades. A poster on anothe forum has given a very good reason for not having much negative pitch at all. As you spool up, if you have too much negative pitch, it can cause the gear to bend and on a smooth surface, will let the skids move outwards. As you continue to spool up, the gear gets forced down to the point that it will start to vibrate as it tries to bend back and start the body resonating. Don't spend a lot of your spooling up with the blades in negative pitch and try and keep it in a slightly positive position. I bring mine up to just a bit above mid stick during the spool up and so far, every one of my birds behaves nicely. Hope this helps.

Don
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Old Jan 05, 2013, 06:09 PM
Redjestird Youser
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I do the 0 at midstick, learned that way, might be hard to un-learn. But you will have finer collective control getting the 0 down lower
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 01:25 PM
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Using a 0 setting at midstick, will result in a hover at around 3/4 stick. If you fly sport aerobatics and 3D (or ever want to) you will become comfortable with the feel of hovering with the stick in that position.

I initially learned to fly many years ago when we all hovered at midstick. Consequently I set all my helis, including my scale helis for hover a midstick hover.

When I got into 3D flying I found it hard to retrain my brain for the feel of hovering at 3/4 stick. In time I got used to it and so also set my scale helis to hover there.

Of course, the bottom of the stick on the scale ships were set only with -2 or -3 degrees (depending how heavy they were. But I found a curve that had -3/0/10 for example may have hovered at 3/4 stick but the collective below hover to mid stick result in big degrees of collective change (5 to 0) which results in a relatively touchy collective below hover.

Note that the pitch to climb while working against gravity from the hover is only 5 degrees from the 5 at hover to the 10 at full. On the other hand with gravity helping you to descend, you have a total range of 8 degrees to bring you down as anything less then the 5 degrees or so at hover will result in a descent.

Consequently, if you have a 5 point curve I suggest that you try pitch settings of -3/0/+3/+5+10 . Now you will find that you will be hovering at the stick position you are comfortable with (3/4 stick) but when you come down on the stick for altitude changes or wind gust compensations etc. it will all be lot more gentle and easier to keep smooth.

If your radio only has a 3 point curve, then use -3/+3/10
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 02:33 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
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I must have very light helicopters as none of mine will hover at 3/4 stick. They all, 3D and scale inclusive, would be rocketing to the heavens, lol.

Don
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
I must have very light helicopters as none of mine will hover at 3/4 stick. They all, 3D and scale inclusive, would be rocketing to the heavens, lol.

Don
I am using 3/4 stick as an example, if you are working from a 0 at mid stick set up. With 0 at mid stick, you would not come off the ground at mid stick, at any rotor speed. This makes it a good beginning reference point.

Assuming the same heli (weight),depending on your rotor speed, you would then come into the hover somewhere above half stick. How close that would be to 3/4 stick would depend on what you have set at top stick.

Here is an example: If my heli, at say a 1400 rpm head speed, my two blade head, and my installed power system, can maintain that head speed in a long climb to say 200 feet at a max top pitch setting of 12 degrees, then I will set my top end at 12 degrees. Now let us say the amount of pitch to hover this heli, at 1400, is 5 degrees. Then if your set at a 0 midstick, you would have a range of 12 degrees with a straight line curve to top stick. This would mean that at mid stick you would have 6 degrees. So I would find myself hovering below 3/4 stick as you would hover at whatever stick position would give you 4 degrees. As you can see this position would be well below 3/4 stick

I like radios with at least 5 point pitch curves, because they allow me to set all my helis to hover at the same point on the stick - say 3/4 - at whatever rotor speeds I choose, slower ones for scale flying and higher ones for 3D flying.

I first find the maximum pitch the power system of the heli can pull at full stick, by doing full climbs of 100 to 200 feet and listening for the rotor. Assuming a governor set for the 1400 above, I keep adding top end pitch until I notice the rotor dropping speed at this setting. Then I back it off until I can do the climb without any drop. This now becomes my top end pitch setting.

Then I determine what pitch is need to hover at that RPM by adjusting the 3/4 stick setting until it hovers there. Whatever degrees that is, is the hover pitch.

Now I can measure the pitch at top stick to see what the MAX is and at 3/4 stick to see what the hover pitch is. This will give me the info I need to set the remaining 3 points. For scale, I can select -3 at bottom stick, and the other two points in a line from their to the 3/4 point.

So let us say at that RPM, I can pull 12 at the top (+100), with no loss of rotor speed, then I will always know to set to that after any mishap. I also would now that any more would just cause unwanted deterioration in rotor speed and more inefficient use of the ESC and power system (more heat).

Also let us say that the hover pitch turned out to be 4 degrees which may be the radio setting of +33, and the bottom is -33, then I can set the two points in between. For a straight line between these two points, this would mean the mid point would be mid stick would be +11 and 1/4 stick would be -11.

to make it clear:
top stick - 100% - 12 degrees
3/4 stick - 33% - 3 degrees
mid stick - 11% - 1 degree
1/4 stick - -11% - -1 degree
low stick - -33% - -3 degrees
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 10:37 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
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Mississauga, Ont., Can.
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I made what was supposed to be a funny remark and you took it very, very wrong. Take care.

Don

PS: Next time I will remember to put a smilie in there so when I do make a funny remark, people don't get their panties all knotted up.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
I made what was supposed to be a funny remark and you took it very, very wrong. Take care.

Don

PS: Next time I will remember to put a smilie in there so when I do make a funny remark, people don't get their panties all knotted up.
Don, no knotted nickers here.

Your post just twigged me into the fact, that there may be some reading this thread, who would benefit from a more concise description of my set-ups. As I had some free time, I gave it a shot.

P.S. I really enjoy our various scale build threads.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 02:31 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
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Mississauga, Ont., Can.
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No problem.

Don
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Old Jan 12, 2013, 03:24 PM
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Rotor Addict, I appreciate your info above and will put it to use. Thanks.
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 06:01 AM
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I switch between the 2, scale hover at half stick, 3D hover at 3/4 stick.. But that's maybe because when I learnt to fly helis there was no such thing as 3D, so I had to learn centre stick was 0 when I got in to 3d, but now I mainly fly scale 85% of the time I prefer the fuller range it gives me having it hover at half stick, but each to there own.
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by topgearuk View Post
I switch between the 2, scale hover at half stick, 3D hover at 3/4 stick.. But that's maybe because when I learnt to fly helis there was no such thing as 3D, so I had to learn centre stick was 0 when I got in to 3d, but now I mainly fly scale 85% of the time I prefer the fuller range it gives me having it hover at half stick, but each to there own.
Ditto for me. But after learning 3D, I adjusted all my helis as per rotoraddicts post above, after seeing a similar post by MotorRotor on HF a number of years ago, and found that I prefered it to the mental switch of hovering at 1/2 stick with some helis and at 3/4 stick with others.

I also found it gave me better control of descent rates with my scale ships.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 07:24 PM
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Canada, BC, Terrace
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rotoradict...does your setup not give you poor resolution of your servos between your hover setting and your top pitch setting? I mean folloiwng your example if your hovering at 4 degrees of pitch at 3/4 stick and have full pitch of 12 degrees coming at 100% stick throw your getting 8 degrees of change over 1/4 of the stick travel. This is what I was trying to avoid by moving more servo resolution up into the flying area of stick travel and keep less servo resolution for every thing bellow hover level. For example if I am now hovering (4 degrees) at mid stick I now have 1/2 my stick throw to control that 8 degrees up to my max of 12 degrees. Would this not make for a smoother flying heli? I understand where your coming from with your setup, but my thinking is more resolution in the flying area of control where yours seems to be more resolution of the servos in the non (descending) flying are of control?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 07:50 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
Joined Sep 2009
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Remember, you can adjust your exponential to give you more movement just as easily as changing the pitch curve. It really boils down to what you are used to and how you fly. You can try it and if you don't like it, you can change it to how YOU want to set it up. You could start with -2 degrees pitch at the bottom of the stick and 10 degrees at the top with a straight line in between. Remember that your flying pitch curves and the mechanical setup of the helicopter are two completely different issues and are not to be confused. Set your servos level and have your swashplate in the middle of the travel for 0 pitch. That should allow you to do just about anything with the pitch curves you want. Take care.

Don
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FiveZigen View Post
rotoradict...does your setup not give you poor resolution of your servos between your hover setting and your top pitch setting? I mean folloiwng your example if your hovering at 4 degrees of pitch at 3/4 stick and have full pitch of 12 degrees coming at 100% stick throw your getting 8 degrees of change over 1/4 of the stick travel. This is what I was trying to avoid by moving more servo resolution up into the flying area of stick travel and keep less servo resolution for every thing bellow hover level. For example if I am now hovering (4 degrees) at mid stick I now have 1/2 my stick throw to control that 8 degrees up to my max of 12 degrees. Would this not make for a smoother flying heli? I understand where your coming from with your setup, but my thinking is more resolution in the flying area of control where yours seems to be more resolution of the servos in the non (descending) flying are of control?
Yes, your resolution is effected - but in today's radios there is a lot of resolution to play with.,,usually 1024 or more. So I have found for scale application it is not all that relevent compared to my settings for FAI/F3C. (Though I know of many current FAI/F3C flyers who no with 2048 radios) run similar curves to what I described above in their hover mode.)

Here we are trying to get the collective set in the heli so that it responds to your to where to the stick position your brain/thumb consistently feels comfortable recognizing when the heli is hovering.

In doing so you will find the effect of gravity to be of bigger consequence then servo/radio resolution.

If you are flying a scale ship, which are generally heavier then in a pod & boom configuration, gravity even plays a more significant roll.

In scale, you are almost always flying right side up, so gravity will always be trying to slow down your climb. On the other hand, it will be trying to accelerate your descent. So having a lower slop to your collective curve on the descent side of the hover will give you a more linear feel to collective inputs above and below hover stick position. Setting up as I described above, you have a steep slop from hover (3/4 stick) to top climb collective (top stick) and a milder slop from hover (3/4 stick) to max decent setting (bottom stick).
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