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Old Feb 07, 2013, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Bobly,

I don't buy that theory. Never have, never will. Neither did my instructor, nor do the writers for RCM buy it. The giant-scale guys with whom I fly don't buy it, either, nor do the pattern guys, the scale guys, or the warbird guys. There is certainly no more reason to crash an RC plane when learning aerobatics than there is to crash a full-scale plane when learning aerobatics.

Joel
Just always the way it worked for me and everybody I fly with. I've yet to meet a rc pilot that hasn't crashed trying to learn. The ones I know that hardly ever crash are the ones with the big balsa planes that have tons of money and time tied up in them and fly them so carefully and cautiously because of fear of destroying them that there's little chance of a crash barring equipment failure. I've also seen the most skilled, experienced and careful rc pilots I know crash a plane, but they were more often than not pushing the envelope when they did it. I haven't torn anything up in a long time, but admittedly have not been pushing my envelope either. I need to get more agressive if I'm going to learn more stuff for sure. Gotta get myself over this not trying because of fear to crash thing - it's getting boring, I gotta learn some new stuff.
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 09:59 PM
wjs
William
United States, MI, Brighton
Joined Oct 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Bobly,

I don't buy that theory. Never have, never will. Neither did my instructor, nor do the writers for RCM buy it. The giant-scale guys with whom I fly don't buy it, either, nor do the pattern guys, the scale guys, or the warbird guys. There is certainly no more reason to crash an RC plane when learning aerobatics than there is to crash a full-scale plane when learning aerobatics.

Joel
Tell that to the red button on Phoenix and Real Flight. Like a million crashes a day trying to learn. Are you kidding? Takes a long time to learn automatic inputs with two levels of indirection (inverted, coming at you) and many combinations. Nobody wants to crash (unless they want to), but it will happen. Each new level steps up the risk. If your just going round and round, I guess that is ok also. Can you limit the risk by forcing yourself to learn a slow pace, yes. But eventually it is the first time and the ground has that tendancy to jump up.
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 10:27 PM
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United States, RI, Smithfield
Joined Dec 2011
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Originally Posted by wjs View Post
Tell that to the red button on Phoenix and Real Flight. Like a million crashes a day trying to learn. Are you kidding? Takes a long time to learn automatic inputs with two levels of indirection (inverted, coming at you) and many combinations. Nobody wants to crash (unless they want to), but it will happen. Each new level steps up the risk. If your just going round and round, I guess that is ok also. Can you limit the risk by forcing yourself to learn a slow pace, yes. But eventually it is the first time and the ground has that tendancy to jump up.
I mitigate this in a few ways outside of the simulator. Mainly, by flying the ultra micros like the Beast 3D or SBACH 3D outside, or on calm days or indoors with my mini crack yak. Crack yak is the best way, just about indestructible unless you really do something crazy with it. Never crashed any of my bigger ships doing stupid things except my super sportster EP foamy which is my beater plane, put that in a few times trying to fly too low inverted over the runway...

UMX ships are really changing this hobby IMHO, combined with the gyro technology they can be flown in almost any wind conditions and almost anywhere due to their small size. I fly them regularly in an auxiliary parking lot at work during lunch breaks. They have really opened up the opportunity to fly. My uncle always flies big ships but last christmas I had my grandmother buy him a UMX beast 3D as a surprise. At first he scoffed and it didn't get much use, but then he tried it in his cul de sac and LOVED it. He can just walk out front and get a few packs in, where he normally doesn't get ANY flying time in between October and March/April (he's a baby when it comes to flying in the cold). Because he can run outside his house and fly a pack or two and then go back inside, he's willing to deal with the cold, and get in stick time... There are times when I'm disappointed with Horizon, but in the end they are introducing technologies and opportunities that are changing the game when it comes to this.

Visionaire is another example of this, fly it in high winds if you want you will still have a smile on your face and bring it in safely... Just amazing stuff!

Tom
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 01:20 AM
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I don't know about you guys, but I was always taught to practice new things "two mistakes high". The envelope can be pushed, new maneuvers can be learned, and you still have time to recover without ditching your plane. So I personally can't understand "having" to crash in order to learn. I'd be broke if that was true.
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 03:09 AM
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East Bethel, MN USA
Joined Jul 2009
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Bobly,

Mugen nailed it. The statement 'if you're not crashing, you're not learning' makes no logical sense. It is simply an excuse for not choosing a disciplined approach to learning. Fly higher until you have mastered a new maneuver. Become intimately familiar with the handling limits of a new plane up high, rather than down low. Problem solved. Of course, we're not talking about those who are teaching themselves to fly without an instructor. We're talking about intermediate pilots, as that's who this plane is for. (Remember - an intermediate pilot is one who has mastered takeoffs & landings, has a couple of faster 4-channel aerobatic sport-planes under his/her belt, is well-beyond the 'crashing stage', and chooses his/her aircraft based primarily upon how well they fly, rather than how well they crash.)

I push the envelope in some manner nearly every time I fly. But I rarely crash. Why? Because I make a point to become intimately familiar with the limits of my aircraft & how it behaves at the limit before getting into a situation where that knowledge is required, and because I know better than to practice new maneuvers or wring-out a new plane below minimum recovery altitude. I also made a point early-on to learn how to read the aircraft, think ahead of the aircraft, and to be in command of the aircraft - rather than simply reacting to what it just did.

BTW - the majority of experienced giant-scale guys I've known or flown with certainly don't fly their planes as you describe. Most of the experienced giant-scale 3D guys I know fly very aggressively right down on the deck. Rolling harrier circles barely a couple wingspans AGL, hovering down low, doing tail-touches, inverted tail-drags, harrier landings. etc. Many of the giant-scale warbird guys at our field make blistering 130+ MPH passes right down on the deck @ WOT, supersonic prop-tips howling away. A few of them often have impromptu contests to see who can fly the lowest. I've seen giant-scale Jugs, Spitfires, and Warhawks coming back to the pits with grass-stained props. They don't fly at all like you describe. Yet they rarely crash. Why/ because they also know the limits of their aircraft & their flying abilities. That's called being a smart flier.

For some reason, your club experience seems to be nearly the polar opposite of what I've experienced in the majority of clubs I've been with over the decades. I don't understand that at all.

Joel
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 03:29 AM
Good Times!
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Joined Feb 2011
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if trying to learn to hover it is much easier close to you than two mistakes high... if you learn 3D indoors like I did you're definitely going to crash a lot. they may be few and far between but they add add up
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 04:39 AM
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I think that "If you don't crash, you're not a good pilot" or "You can't learn without crashing" are a bit silly (and are often said as a joke). I do however, think that it is accurate to say that you learn from your mistakes (crashes). Every crash throughout my RC experience has taught me something whether it's the rules of flying downwind, the importance of orientation or even about suitable flying conditions.

The one thing for me that's been good practice is the rule of staying a few mistakes high.

Tom
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro Budget View Post
if trying to learn to hover it is much easier close to you than two mistakes high... if you learn 3D indoors like I did you're definitely going to crash a lot. they may be few and far between but they add add up
Yeah, I learnt this from Hobbykings 'How to fly 3D'. Michael Wargo explains it as loosing the feel of the hover if you start too high.

Tom :-)
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 06:00 AM
Way to many airplanes!
Canada, QC
Joined Oct 2009
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For me there's 3 types of pilots:

The expensive minded pilot: This guy has flown $500 airplanes and up. You simply don't crash a $1000 airplane. Huge adrenaline rush simply flying an expensive model inverted 20 feet over the runway.

The pattern/scale guy: It's the type of pilot who always fly safely (often 2 mistakes high), but make the most beautiful patterns/moves. Everything has to be perfect. That pilot get a rush from every perfect moves, and will be mad if his KE is not simply perfect, yet safely way up there.

The adrenaline rush addict: A Knife Edge is not enough, the wing has to touch. A hover is not enough, the tail has to touch. Landing on a runway is not enough, a stamp is big enough. That pilot doesn't mind crashing, as he is flying for the adrenaline rush, particularly on a $100 model. Making thousands of pefect KE way up in the air is not satisfying anymore. Saving only one wing touch and getting out of it make his day (and he easily forget about crashing 10 times before finally doing it)

So basically, everybody get their adrenaline rush differently. Wallet size also make a difference. You'll find pilot who fly PA airplanes like there's no tomorrow, and others who fly a UMX Spitfire like their life depend on it. But overall, most of us fly for the adrenaline rush we get, and we simply get it differently.

Personally, if I don't have to change my underwears when I get home after a flying session, it was a bad day!
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 06:12 AM
No, I dont work for HH ;)
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Southampton, Hampshire, UK
Joined Sep 2009
3,764 Posts
On this topic, i will only fly if i have a goal.

I like to fly 3D for the goal of pulling a move
I like to thermal for the goal of seeing how long i can stay up for
I like to fly warbirds to see how scale looking and low i can get
I like to fly FPV to see the ground from a different view and get some awesome video

It depends what goal you want to achieve as to how you fly!
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 06:18 AM
LiPo-Sucker & Airframe EMT
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Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Joined Aug 2010
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Originally Posted by RealGambler View Post
.....Personally, if I don't have to change my underwears when I get home after a flying session, it was a bad day!
RG's MiG

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Old Feb 08, 2013, 06:29 AM
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I think personally I am sometimes any of the three types. I shouldn't say this, cause you know what will be next, but I have never crashed one of my balsa models, but fly them like the first or second pilot class listed. Pretty much likewise for my bigger more expensive foamies. But then I have my EPP foamies that put me closer to the third class. And that's where this conversation started I believe, buying or not buying planes or props based on crash worthiness. So for me, my learning tools have certainly been purchased with durability in mind. Not that I plan to crash them, but at my level of competence, certainly can't rule it out. My micros are always considered candidates for crash testing. Mainly flown in my yard which is surrounded by solid very tall woods. No flying 3 mistakes high here, 20 feet or so max and with a wall of woods around you. Take them out to the club field and they become safe again. For safety, you're right for sure, nothing beats altitude. I'm not especially gifted in the hand/eye coordination thing and a slow learner to boot, so even getting to where I am now has been a tough climb, but I still want to get better, and not that I like it, but have developed the mind set that I must accept the fact that I might crash something as I progress. If I didn't have that attitude, I would likely quit completely. The durability of a plane certainly helps ease the jitters even if you don't crash it and makes concentrating on flying easier. Some of it is mind games for sure. I have several brand nib planes that I bought because I liked something well enough that I didn't want to be without it if I tore it up. Of the planes I did that with, I am still flying the originals and have enjoyed them more and pushed them harder than the ones that I don't have that backup in the closet for.
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 06:51 AM
J. Titors Gr Gr Grandpappy
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Charlotte,NC
Joined May 2005
1,852 Posts
Got one pack on the 11 x 3.8 apc slow flyer. Seems to work really well. The stock esc is rated for 40 amps continuous and 55 amp burst for 15 seconds. I believe these numbers are accurate. I never held wot (45.6 amps static) for more than 5 mississippi's. w/o throttle management you will smoke something. 45 degrees and all came down cool. My limited experience with the wood props is that usually the wood equivalent of the apc numbers generally draw less amps and spool a little faster.
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 07:02 AM
J. Titors Gr Gr Grandpappy
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Charlotte,NC
Joined May 2005
1,852 Posts
I like the fact that this plane has almost modular airframe parts. Put me in the sick uncle fester in the basement that builds a train set and heads the trains into each other category. A foamy needs to be punished so it knows who is the boss.
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 07:14 AM
lownslow
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United States, FL, Cape Canaveral
Joined Nov 2011
333 Posts
WOW great conversation guys!! Nice to be on a thread that does not have a bunch of whiners !!!!!!

4 more paks yesterday, I have over 30 flights and I love this plane even more each day, things I could not even think about 2 weeks ago and can do now:

Harrier landing, up to about 15 sec HOOOOVER!, tail first landings, a decent waterall, some harrier, some inverted harrier, what a HOOT this plane is......

When I first bought it I thought I made a huge mistake because it flew so slow (compared to stryker and pwr 10 wildcat) than after few more paks I realized, this power setup is really about light weight and control, not blistering vertical, and I learned to love it just the way it is, the first plane I did not mod prop or motor...........ed
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