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Old Feb 13, 2013, 12:11 PM
Never say DIE...
Grimracer's Avatar
Urbana IL
Joined Feb 2006
238 Posts
Hubb,

Good question and thanks for asking.

Let me back up for a sec...

I/we added the "ARF" planes because we felt we needed to add a place for new budding scale builders to come in and learn. At this years event... we had nobody enter with a "Tricked Out" ARF..

Also.. Im still spinning some ideas around about "the builder of the model rule" and how that might or might not help or hurt this event in years to come.

Moving on...

So at the event we allowed ARFs, you did not have to be the builder of the model and you could enter as many planes as you liked.

This saved the event from low'er numbers...

To answer your question.. yes.. at this years event.. as long as your plane was under 12oz you could enter it..

The TOP 8 statics (one per pilot) moved on to the flying portion.. SO.. if your Pico was in the top 8 you would have moved on to the flight portion.

So you know.. I FULLY expect the rules to change next year BUT.. not much.. They worked fine and everybody (I hope) had a good time.

Any changes WILL BE POSTED well in advance so everybody wanting to will have time to build for the event.


Does this help?

Grim
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 12:30 PM
Late
Hubb's Avatar
Lebanon, OH
Joined Oct 2003
301 Posts
Yes, thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

The "tricked out" ARF class seems to be the right fit for me and I certainly expect to enter next year. I am betting that with some research there are plenty of worthy subjects available out there for someone like me to jump into competing for the first time. Please consider adding more pilots to the flight portion - perhaps by class. I hate to think of the effort of the build and then have to sit on the sidelines for the flight portion. I would like my chance to show both.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Angelo's Avatar
Chicago, IL
Joined Nov 1999
2,049 Posts
I could see two categories, modified ARFs and scratch/kit builds. No matter how detailed, I can't see an ARF going up against a plane that started as sticks or blocks of foam. Of course, might not be enough time for two classes.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 12:42 PM
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Hubb's Avatar
Lebanon, OH
Joined Oct 2003
301 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo View Post
I could see two categories, modified ARFs and scratch/kit builds. No matter how detailed, I can't see an ARF going up against a plane that started as sticks or blocks of foam. Of course, might not be enough time for two classes.
agreed! I was only hoping to express that the modified ARF pilots get a chance to show thier flight skills as well. I would have little hope competing against the scratch built works of art and being able to make it to the flight portion.

Time is always an issue for sure, I don't dispute that.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:10 PM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
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Grim

Looks like your scale event is emulating what happened to FAI scale, at least in England, not that long ago. A need for really complex models lead to diminishing numbers of competitors - the existing ones gradually 'faded away' and the extremely high standard of model needed chased away any hope of new competitors replacing them.

The answer at the time was 'Stand Off Scale', with easier going static judging from a distance - no rivet counting or measuring of cockpit instrument dial diameters, neither of which are really jokes.

Being like e-power, this scale business has moved far faster than it did in the oily outdoors world. Do you now go for the models like this year, or just let ready-mades rule?

The time investment for a scale model of any real calibre, as opposed to buying a shiny box ready made and changing the decals, is such that few around today would appear to have time to make one.

As for flying, few will get the chance for a practice flight before the comp - not too good when you consider the penalty for straying outside of the flight pattern at an indoor venue. I certainly wouldn't want to test fly a scale model in a 20-odd model general flying sessions. It's a lot harder indoors than it is adapting to a different outdoor site, for sure.

As you obviously can't have the Armory restricted to one scale model in the air at a time while all entered in the scale event fly, or at least more than this year's event, I envy you not with how this excellent event shapes up in the future.

D
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:27 PM
Never say DIE...
Grimracer's Avatar
Urbana IL
Joined Feb 2006
238 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubb View Post
Yes, thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

The "tricked out" ARF class seems to be the right fit for me and I certainly expect to enter next year. I am betting that with some research there are plenty of worthy subjects available out there for someone like me to jump into competing for the first time. Please consider adding more pilots to the flight portion - perhaps by class. I hate to think of the effort of the build and then have to sit on the sidelines for the flight portion. I would like my chance to show both.
Thanks for getting back..
We (our scale flight time) is 1/2 hour.. Now.. can I get more dedicated time.. well..
There are FAR MORE non scale flying (paid) pilots then scale (paid) pilots.
For me to ask all those guys that paid that money to sit back and “not fly” is a stretch. Do you agree?
Im pretty sure for 2014, and just to get things back going its going to be the same flight time. I don’t want to push that on frank for next year. IF.. we get a good turnout of static models however I can see frank making room for more flying.
NOW.. we had 8 flying spots this year AND we were well done in our dedicated flight time. I THINK.. THINK.. I can fit up to 12.. we might go for that next year.

Grim
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 02:33 PM
Never say DIE...
Grimracer's Avatar
Urbana IL
Joined Feb 2006
238 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dereck View Post
Grim

Looks like your scale event is emulating what happened to FAI scale, at least in England, not that long ago. A need for really complex models lead to diminishing numbers of competitors - the existing ones gradually 'faded away' and the extremely high standard of model needed chased away any hope of new competitors replacing them.

The answer at the time was 'Stand Off Scale', with easier going static judging from a distance - no rivet counting or measuring of cockpit instrument dial diameters, neither of which are really jokes.

Being like e-power, this scale business has moved far faster than it did in the oily outdoors world. Do you now go for the models like this year, or just let ready-mades rule?

The time investment for a scale model of any real calibre, as opposed to buying a shiny box ready made and changing the decals, is such that few around today would appear to have time to make one.

As for flying, few will get the chance for a practice flight before the comp - not too good when you consider the penalty for straying outside of the flight pattern at an indoor venue. I certainly wouldn't want to test fly a scale model in a 20-odd model general flying sessions. It's a lot harder indoors than it is adapting to a different outdoor site, for sure.

As you obviously can't have the Armory restricted to one scale model in the air at a time while all entered in the scale event fly, or at least more than this year's event, I envy you not with how this excellent event shapes up in the future.

D
Dereck,

I understand all the above.. we have 1/2hour flight time.. Adding a Pro-Am class or whatever is likely not going to happen. We are going to have to balance what we have the best we can.

Just so you know.. Im a competition junky so having to build and fly against the best of the best is nothing more than a bump in the road for me. I have to keep that in mind because not everybody thinking that way..

Grim
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 04:54 PM
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325FGP's Avatar
USA, IN, Anderson
Joined Jul 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo View Post
I could see two categories, modified ARFs and scratch/kit builds. No matter how detailed, I can't see an ARF going up against a plane that started as sticks or blocks of foam. Of course, might not be enough time for two classes.
I agree with that ARFs would have a rough time competing with built up models. It would be best for them to compete against other ARFs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimracer View Post
Dereck,

I understand all the above.. we have 1/2hour flight time.. Adding a Pro-Am class or whatever is likely not going to happen. We are going to have to balance what we have the best we can.
Grim
Perhaps advancing only 4 pilots each from the ARF class and the built up class would be a possibility? That would give you the same number of pilots in the flight portion and give the entry level class a chance to fly.

my two cents (not valid in canadia)
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Last edited by 325FGP; Feb 13, 2013 at 04:56 PM. Reason: typoing
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 07:02 PM
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jfassino's Avatar
Peoria, Illinois, United States
Joined Sep 2003
430 Posts
Grim

Having participated in the scale contest each year I want to compliment you on the best run scale contest so far. It was very well organized, ran on time and the results known by all. A big thanks to you, Frank and the Hobbico team for a great job.

I look forward to participating next year. I welcome the addition of ARFs and any other ideas to introduce more flyers to indoor scale.

Jim
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 09:02 PM
Never say DIE...
Grimracer's Avatar
Urbana IL
Joined Feb 2006
238 Posts
Thanks Jim.

To all reading..

I keep thinking... I have seen some "unreal" ARFs made up.. I see no reasion they might not make the top 8-12 whatever.

Then.. is this "without change" nothing more then playing into the hands of a very few master builder/flyers.. Is that what we want?.. heck..maybe?

I think what we had this year was close. Maybe adding a few more flight slots is all we need.

Lets see what happens with the feedback I got from the event.

Thanks again Jim and thanks again for your years of participation.

Regards

Grimracer
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 11:41 PM
Flutter-Bys are fun
Conehead's Avatar
United States, MI, Honor
Joined Dec 2005
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I am so glad I didn't have to judge the scale planes. All of them, from the photos looked fantastic.

Conehead
Orrin Eldred
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 08:42 AM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
12,788 Posts
Hi Grim
I don't compete any more, but did fairly seriously back in England, so understand where you're coming from.

Another interesting episode in the scale world was, again, in that British attempt to open up scale comps with 'Stand Off Scale' - who's judging wasn't that far removed from 'E Fest Scale' either, as I recall. By year two, the Grande PooBaas had to figure out how to keep out FAI competitors from entering with their 'last but one' FAI class models backed by SOS appropriate documentation vice their original FAI rivet-counting docs.

As a competitor yourself, you undoubtably know that true competitors will bend, if not drive right through, the rules to better position themselves to win.

A really idle thought. Around 1985, back in England, the club I flew with was having a winter clubmeet discussion on what to do with a club trophy that's event had faded away. Someone mentioned that the club already had annual trophies for the year's best kit built and plans built models. Being of a slightly sarcastic nature and as such things were fairly new and pretty much a joke at the time, I suggested awarding it for the best ready-made model of the year. Everyone fell over laughing.

I should have patented the idea, along with park flying Still, I suppose its progress.

However you do it Grim, all the best for next year's event. I reckon you're about as close to the best compromise as you're going to get, but it would be good for all entrants to fly. Shame you can't have some time for real flying taken from that model wrecking event that follows.

D
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 08:45 AM
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mark fadely's Avatar
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Some scale contest shots















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Old Feb 14, 2013, 01:09 PM
Flutter-Bys are fun
Conehead's Avatar
United States, MI, Honor
Joined Dec 2005
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Mark,
Excellent images as always from you. God are you good. You have lots of talent and have prefected your craft quite well. Your images are exqusite. Bravo.

Thank you for sharing them.
Conehead
Orrin Eldred
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 02:27 PM
fmidgett's Avatar
Durham NC
Joined Jul 2004
3,669 Posts
The man can take some photos. I'm a huge fan. Thanks for posting Mark.
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