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Old Dec 30, 2012, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JPV FPV View Post
Curious what the Naza users have for gain settings. I've been messing with mine for a few days and there's just one gremlin I cant kill: oscillations with full throttle punch outs. Forward flight and turns are very smooth. I've been playing with the 4 basic gain settings between 100-170% and cant seem to kill the wobble while ascending.

Current settings:

160 150 160 150
135 135

My gut tells me its has something to do with the Flip arms flexing, but I'm a rookie when it comes to tuning. Part of me wants to swap out the flip arms for the HT-FPV arms like in this video:

http://youtu.be/GkRWECYnEWg

I hope that's not the only solution to the problem because I love the Flip arms otherwise.

Your gains seem a bit high to me. You might try lowering them but increasing attitude if it feels sluggish. Also, what happens when you punch out in manual mode? This is a good indicator which gain is doing it.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:23 AM
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United States, TN, Clarksville
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Originally Posted by Derek_S View Post
What flight times are you looking at on that setup?

I put a 4s 4000 on mine this morning, and waas very surprised to find that the flight time was the same, if not a little less from a 3000 3s setup. Everything else was the same (10x4 props, 750kv 2830 motors). I dont have any 9" props, but thinking of trying some 8" on 4s just to see what happens, although I think 8" is gonna be much too small for the 750kv.

I really though going from the 1100kv and *" props to the 750 on 10" was gonna buy me some time, but so far all my tests (which basically just use the timer on the TX) show that the gain/loss of flight time is pretty negligible so far.
I told yuh 3s isn't always better than 4s and lower kv motors arnt always better than higher kv motors. It all just depends on what your trying to lift and how much torque you want. Lower kv motor have to spin faster using more battery to create the same amount of lift a higher kv motor makes with the same size prop. So if your a slower style flyer 3s and 1000kv motors on 10 inch sf props is not a bad combo. If you are a more aggressive flyer and you like the quick bolts of energy and doing tricks then lower kv motors on 4s is better. But every motor and prop combo has its sweet spot where basically it's giving you the best combo and flight times. It's just hard to find sometimes. To me I've found my gaui 960kv motors on 3s 10 inch props seem to be the best. But I have put 11inch props on 3s 620kv motors and my flight time was like 14 mins. Now I fly with 10 inch props on 4s with 620 kv motors and I'm only getting 7.8-8.5 mins. But I like the power!!!!
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 11:03 AM
'FPV'er...not a "LOS'er
Vantasstic's Avatar
Las Vegas, NV
Joined Sep 2003
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Originally Posted by flohio117 View Post
...But every motor and prop combo has its sweet spot where basically it's giving you the best combo and flight times. It's just hard to find sometimes.
That's probably the best statement. I just takes testing, recording, experimenting to find what motor/prop, battery combination gives the performance and flying time you're satisfied with. I'm using an Eagletree data logger to record my volts and amps in flight so I see exactly what the system is doing in operation.

In theory, 4S is more efficient than 3S. We actually fly more by power (Watts) than amps. Simple math is IxE=P (amps x voltate=power). Let's say you need 300W to fly how you like. WIth a 12v system you divide P/E=A (300W/12V=25A). Now take that to a 4S system @ 16v...300W/16=18.75A...a 6.25A reduction which equals longer flying time. Now consider larger, heavier batteries will require more power to lift the extra weight and you could end up with no significant gain or flying time.

I posted some of my 4S, 750kv, 9x5x3 time/power data earlier in this thread....without FPV gear installed. Now that I've added extra weight I will need to test again with different props to see which gives the performance and flight time I'd like. My goal is to achieve ~12 minutes full FPV flight time with the idea of flying only ~10 minutes with a few minutes of reserve. More testing to do to get an idea what my system is able to provide.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 11:21 AM
LOAD "FLIP-FPV",8,1
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Joined Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPV FPV View Post
Curious what the Naza users have for gain settings. I've been messing with mine for a few days and there's just one gremlin I cant kill: oscillations with full throttle punch outs. Forward flight and turns are very smooth. I've been playing with the 4 basic gain settings between 100-170% and cant seem to kill the wobble while ascending.

Current settings:

160 150 160 150
135 135

My gut tells me its has something to do with the Flip arms flexing, but I'm a rookie when it comes to tuning. Part of me wants to swap out the flip arms for the HT-FPV arms like in this video:

http://youtu.be/GkRWECYnEWg

I hope that's not the only solution to the problem because I love the Flip arms otherwise.
The HT-450 arms are longer, which could have been why Luke had better luck with them when he made that video. The CC is a bit hard to tune, and we don't have a solid answer on that yet.

It would not be hard to add a torsion bar or dampener plate to the arms if it turns out that they are resonating at a particular frequency. I have been playing with this lately actually.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Derek_S View Post
I dont see what makes you think it is arm flex? When I grab my flip arm and flex it by hand, it is super rigid. Very much more rigid than DJI arms, which many people seem happy with on their naza-controlled flamewheels???
I know the arms flex because I can see them flexing when I purposely try to bend them or when I hold the quad down and give it full throttle. Not much, but it's there. I dont own a flamewheel so I cant comment. The only thing I have to compare this to is the HT-FPV, which didn't exhibit this behavior. Those arms dont flex, at least on that axis. Besides frame geometry (arm length and positioning) the Flip's arm design is the only other big departure from the HT-FPV. So that's why I suspect it has something to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vic20owner View Post
Your gains seem a bit high to me. You might try lowering them but increasing attitude if it feels sluggish. Also, what happens when you punch out in manual mode? This is a good indicator which gain is doing it.
Thanks for the reply. I did mess with lowering the gains, all the way down to around 100%, couldn't escape the wobble. I'll try your suggestion on the manual mode punch out today and see what happens. Like I said, I'm a rookie at tuning, so I appreciate all the help I can get. And for the record, I LOVE both my HT quads! I'm sure I will get this figured out.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 05:17 PM
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Check and make sure you don't have a bent motor shaft or something
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 05:28 PM
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Las Vegas, NV
Joined Sep 2003
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I tried different props with my NTM 750 motors today. I had been flying the Flip with 9x5 3-blade props. It did well, but felt a little sluggish on throttle response. My first flight today was with 10x6 3-blade props. Wow, nice difference. It felt more reactive to stick and throttle movements, but what about amp draw?

I flew both 10" and 9" props on 4S and recorded with my Eagletree data recorder...so my results are a good comparison of actual performance. I was actually a little surprised by the results:
4S w/10x6x3 props:
Max Amp: 40A total, full power climb
Avg Cruise Amps:~13.5A total
Flying Time: 8 minutes
mAh Consumed: 1771mAh out of a 2650mAh pack
Amps/minute: 221.3mAh per minute
Max calculated flying time: 11.9 minutes to full depletion.


4S w/9x5x3 props:
Max Amp: 27.7A total, full power climb
Avg Cruise Amps:~14.5A total
Flying Time: 7.1 minutes
mAh Consumed: 1669mAh out of a 2650mAh pack
Amps/minute: 235.1mAh per minute
Max calculated flying time: 11.3 minutes to full depletion.

So...with the 10" props I can actually get slightly longer flying time with better response. FWIW, I flew the 10" props a little more aggressively than with the 9" props. My last flight of the day with 10" props garnered ~214mAh/minute consumption...so even a little more flying time than the first run. On the down side, the 10" props are in view on both sides of the GoPro view. No biggy though. I prefer flying my Sunex lens on my multi's so that'd keep the props out of view.

I need to do more tuning on the frame...or perhaps just install my Naza until my APM2.5 arrives and gets tested. Working on a quick video now...hopefully will have it posted later tonight.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 06:55 PM
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Joined May 2009
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Thanks, that is very helpful data. It would be interesting also to maybe fly with 2 batteries in parallel, doubling capacity but seeing how much the returns diminished on this setup.

I flew about 4 packs today and have decided I really need to move up to 4s on mine. Although I didnt see a significant improvement in flight time, It sure is more responsive and even smoother whan on 4s. Plus if I used something a little lighter than my 4000 4s I think I might even see a little better flight times. Just wished I had a ~3000mah 4s battery to try it with.

Van, what brand props are you using? I am using Zinger wooden props as that is all I have right now. Not sure they are the most efficient, but I like them ok.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:04 PM
'FPV'er...not a "LOS'er
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Las Vegas, NV
Joined Sep 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek_S View Post
Thanks, that is very helpful data. It would be interesting also to maybe fly with 2 batteries in parallel, doubling capacity but seeing how much the returns diminished on this setup.

I flew about 4 packs today and have decided I really need to move up to 4s on mine. Although I didnt see a significant improvement in flight time, It sure is more responsive and even smoother whan on 4s. Plus if I used something a little lighter than my 4000 4s I think I might even see a little better flight times. Just wished I had a ~3000mah 4s battery to try it with.

Van, what brand props are you using? I am using Zinger wooden props as that is all I have right now. Not sure they are the most efficient, but I like them ok.
I'm using GWS 3-blade props. I have mixed feelings on them. Some have blades that track pretty well, some have arrived with blades (bent) way out of track and with not lots of luck reshaping them. I don't know if this is a production problem or from shipping/packaging warpage.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:09 PM
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A little fun with today's 'prop testing' video. I had some vibration and PID tuning issues today that need to be worked out. Since this was more for flight duration testing with different props I wasn't to concerned about it. Enjoy the Flip'n video...
More Flip'n Video (1 min 58 sec)
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:16 PM
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United States, TN, Clarksville
Joined Dec 2011
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I just ordered 2x 4s batteries for my new flip that I don't even have yet lol ill also use them in my iconic x though. I got 2 2700mah 4s 25c zippy compacts. Hopefully they won't take 2 months to get to me from Hong Kong.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:25 PM
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I finally built my FLIP this evening, and took pics along the way. I'm expecting some running gear soon
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 10:12 PM
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Aurora wearing her snow pants...
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 11:32 PM
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Australia, NSW, Sydney
Joined Oct 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantasstic View Post
A little fun with today's 'prop testing' video. I had some vibration and PID tuning issues today that need to be worked out. Since this was more for flight duration testing with different props I wasn't to concerned about it. Enjoy the Flip'n video...
http://youtu.be/OtZ_3g4CK2E

cool video van
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by webdr View Post
I finally built my FLIP this evening, and took pics along the way. I'm expecting some running gear soon
Really sweet, wish the camo one was available when I ordered mine!
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