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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:39 PM
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You have to love his objections to supposedly strawman arguments whereas I'm told he knows what I'm saying even when I haven't.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
You have to love his objections to supposedly strawman arguments whereas I'm told he knows what I'm saying even when I haven't.
I can hear the grinding gears from the clashing logics from here.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:44 PM
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It's not Ad Hom, since I am dealing with what he has said vs, what he has actually done.


I think he's a weasel, now that's Ad Hom.
Both your sentence above and the exchange below are attacks on Obama's character, which has nothing to do with this discussion, and is a classic red-herring.

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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Now who's weasel-wording? Hint: not me.
Answer; Obama.


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Originally Posted by madsci_guy View Post
Obama promised to end torture without exception. He didn't actually mean "without exception", since Extreme Rendition is an an exception.
Is the act of moving a prisoner to another country torture itself? No. Does torture happen when they get there? Maybe.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
You have to love his objections to supposedly strawman arguments whereas I'm told he knows what I'm saying even when I haven't.
Well hey, if what I quoted from you is not what you said, or not what you meant, please feel free to clarify. You certainly didn't the first time around.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Both your sentence above and the exchange below are attacks on Obama's character, which has nothing to do with this discussion, and is a classic red-herring.
Weasel wording as you have used it, accurately describes Obama's actions, and is not a description of Obama's character. per se.

word·ing (wűrdng)
n.
The act or style of expressing in words.


Quote:
Is the act of moving a prisoner to another country torture itself? No. Does torture happen when they get there? Maybe.
More weasel wording, this time on your part.

Quote:
As we have previously noted, extreme rendition -- sometimes called "extraordinary rendition” -- refers to taking terrorism suspects to nations where they are at a high risk of being tortured or imprisoned indefinitely.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:52 PM
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You certainly didn't the first time around.
Silence is not assent. You know that.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:59 PM
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Because that's exactly what he suggested in denying any form of food assistance to unplanned children in the women's health thread:
I suggested no such thing, and most certainly not 'exactly'.

I realize that in your view, the State is likely the sole valid method of aiding people and if one doesn't back using it against others to get their resources, why then one must oppose what the resources are used for.

But that's false. I don't oppose helping people. I oppose forcing other people to do so.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:06 PM
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I suggested no such thing, and most certainly not 'exactly'.

I realize that in your view, the State is likely the sole valid method of aiding people and if one doesn't back using it against others to get their resources, why then one must oppose what the resources are used for.

But that's false. I don't oppose helping people. I oppose forcing other people to do so.
Consent is implied through citizenship
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by madsci_guy View Post
Weasel wording as you have used it, accurately describes Obama's actions, and is not a description of Obama's character. per se.

word·ing (wűrdng)
n.
The act or style of expressing in words.


More weasel wording, this time on your part.
Again, neither Obama's character, nor "his wording" are relevant to the discussion. You have not shown how "rendition" = "torture."
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:13 PM
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Consent is implied through citizenship
No it's not. The refusal to flee is implied via citizenship, and that is all. Besides, this doesn't even make sense. You're telling me I must support what I oppose simply because I live here and don't run?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:20 PM
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You have not shown how "rendition" = "torture."
Not my claim, but a nice strawman.

Here's my claim once again. All the words are important, not just the ones you cut n' paste to erect your strawman.

Obama's claim

Quote:
"From both a moral standpoint and a practical standpoint, torture is wrong. Barack Obama will end the use torture without exception. He also will eliminate the practice of extreme rendition, where we outsource our torture to other countries."
1. Extreme Rendition has not been stopped That part of his claim is not true.

2. Extreme Rendition involves the likelihood of the person who is rendered being tortured.

3. Obama's promise was to "will end the use torture without exception". Extreme rendition is indeed an exception to his promise.

4. Therefore his promise is weasel worded, by omitting the qualifier of "by America" to his promise of "without exception"
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:21 PM
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Consent is implied through citizenship
It's not. If it was, then why vote?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:04 PM
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No it's not. The refusal to flee is implied via citizenship, and that is all. Besides, this doesn't even make sense. You're telling me I must support what I oppose simply because I live here and don't run?
You don't have to like it, but you don't get to arbitrarily disobey laws you don't like.

If you wish to free yourself from US Gov't rule, there's a free and clear path to do so. You always have a choice.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:07 PM
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You don't have to like it, but you don't get to arbitrarily disobey laws you don't like.
Sure we can.

What can't be usually done, is disobey and escape the consequences.

Well, unless you're a US Senator, Representative, President or Attorney General, etc..
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 05:43 AM
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Consent is implied through citizenship
Tell that to the German Jews of WWII.
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