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Old Feb 10, 2014, 12:44 PM
when is the wind stopping??
markkona's Avatar
Malta, Marsaskala
Joined Apr 2011
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Originally Posted by Wasp09 View Post
I do have a Turnigy 9X TX and three $9 8CH RX's. However I don't feel safe using them, even after flashing the TX with openTX. The problem is the Skyfly radio.

With the Skyfly module, if we turn off the TX and turn back on without power cycling the RX, the RX will immediately output neutral to all channels before the TX can go through the stick and switch check no matter how we configure the 9x. Sounds like a failsave feature, guess what? Neutral is half throttle!

This is the only one out of my many TXs that would do that and it can be stuck at checking indefinitely and hence driving half throttle indefinitely.

That scared me a few times before I figured out what happened and I believed that also screwed a couple of my ESC's.

Skyartec 701TX and RadioLink TX would just continue working normally after power cycling. Usually I throttle hold and then turn off the TX without removing the battery from the heli when I am checking and preparing the heli. It is safer than using throttle hold alone.

Devo 7 and RX601 would stay unbinded in such case. We have to power down the RX to rebind.

Be careful when you use the 9X with the stock Skyfly module. Whenever you power off the TX, make sure you also power cycle the RX before you power the TX back up again.

Take care.
I never had this problem maybe because I have the V2 model!!
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Old Feb 10, 2014, 02:47 PM
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Joined Aug 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasp09 View Post
I do have a Turnigy 9X TX and three $9 8CH RX's. However I don't feel safe using them, even after flashing the TX with openTX. The problem is the Skyfly radio.

With the Skyfly module, if we turn off the TX and turn back on without power cycling the RX, the RX will immediately output neutral to all channels before the TX can go through the stick and switch check no matter how we configure the 9x. Sounds like a failsave feature, guess what? Neutral is half throttle!

This is the only one out of my many TXs that would do that and it can be stuck at checking indefinitely and hence driving half throttle indefinitely.

That scared me a few times before I figured out what happened and I believed that also screwed a couple of my ESC's.

Skyartec 701TX and RadioLink TX would just continue working normally after power cycling. Usually I throttle hold and then turn off the TX without removing the battery from the heli when I am checking and preparing the heli. It is safer than using throttle hold alone.

Devo 7 and RX601 would stay unbinded in such case. We have to power down the RX to rebind.

Be careful when you use the 9X with the stock Skyfly module. Whenever you power off the TX, make sure you also power cycle the RX before you power the TX back up again.

Take care.
Wasp09,

I had a few incidents like that with my Flysky also when I absent mindedly didn't follow the power up tx first, off last rule. Now I'm reeeaaal careful! about that

I agree that it's a ridiculous feature, but like with everything else connected to helicopter flying we have to keep our wits about us and pay attention to what we're doing.

I didn't yesterday while checking blade tracking on my 450 and got an instant reminder when I got a fingernail partially torn off! But I thank the Good Lord, it could have been far worse.
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Old Feb 10, 2014, 03:01 PM
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Canada, ON, Ottawa
Joined Jun 2009
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Markkona,

The $9 RX I have problem with is called "Reciever for TURNIGY 9X transmitter (V2)" :

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store...dProduct=12339

Unless HK has/had a better version, the issue should show up on yours. If you like to check it out, after a normal flight on your heli, i.e. binding is done and everything was working, throttle down and power off the 9X TX for a few seconds.

Stay away! You have been warned.

Turn the 9X TX back on, you should see your heli spinning up on its own. If any sticks or keys aren't in the default positions, the motor won't stop. Even when all the keys and switches are in the required positions, we will still get about half of a second of uncontrolled half throttle. Throttle hold won't help.

Theoretically the issue should be able to be fixed on the RX as the RX definitely knows the TX is transmitting but still sending blanks/junks as indicated by its status LED. it probably is simply a failsafe feature badly implemented. (It only screws up when signal is kind of half way coming back.)

The issue may also be worked around (shortened, i.e. less damaging) on the TX side by not allowing the radio module to turn on the RF until everything is good and ready. (More difficult and may require additional hardware.)

Good luck.
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Last edited by Wasp09; Feb 10, 2014 at 08:35 PM.
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Old Feb 10, 2014, 04:53 PM
Flying a Falcon or a RC Heli.
fauconnier's Avatar
Canada, QC, Rimouski
Joined Jul 2012
685 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasp09 View Post
The $9 RX I have problem with is called "Reciever for TURNIGY 9X transmitter (V2)" :

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store...dProduct=12339

Unless HK has/had a better version, the issue should show up on yours. If you like to check it out, after a normal flight on your heli, i.e. binding is done and everything was working, throttle down and power off the 9X TX for a few seconds.

Stay away! You have been warned.

Turn the 9X TX back on, you should see your heli spinning up on its own. If any sticks or keys aren't in the default positions, the motor won't stop. Even when all the keys and switches are in the required positions, we will still get about half of a second of uncontrolled half throttle. Throttle hold won't help.

Theoretically the issue should be able to be fixed on the RX as the RX definitely knows the TX is transmitting but still sending blanks/junks as indicated by its status LED. it probably is simply a failsafe feature badly implemented. (It only screws up when signal is kind of half way coming back.)

The issue may also be worked around (shortened, i.e. less damaging) on the TX side by not allowing the radio module to turn on the RF until everything is good and ready. (More difficult and may require additional hardware.)

Good luck.
I have read in the old 9x manual that a fail safe function could be adjusted to throttle zero.

􀁺 The submenu "FAILSAFE" The failsafe function to define what behavior the receiver should
adopt towards the servos when there is a breakdown of the emission beam. When the model
is flying, you can try to keep it there hoping that the loss of control will be brief and fleeting
or to drop it quickly so as not to lose. When working on the ground on the settings of your
device, I suggest you set the FAIL SAFE with the gas = 0 (as in the photo at right). If you
turn off the radio first inadvertently, it will avoid you see your plane take off or injure
yourself.
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Old Feb 10, 2014, 08:31 PM
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Canada, ON, Ottawa
Joined Jun 2009
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Failsafe configuration does not work for the stock SkyFly radio/RX under that situation. The $9 RX, V911 /V912 control always give half throttle. It may work with non SkyFly based RF modules and RXs.
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Old Feb 11, 2014, 02:27 AM
when is the wind stopping??
markkona's Avatar
Malta, Marsaskala
Joined Apr 2011
1,566 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasp09 View Post
markkona,

the $9 rx i have problem with is called "reciever for turnigy 9x transmitter (v2)" :

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store...dproduct=12339

unless hk has/had a better version, the issue should show up on yours. If you like to check it out, after a normal flight on your heli, i.e. Binding is done and everything was working, throttle down and power off the 9x tx for a few seconds.

Stay away! You have been warned.

turn the 9x tx back on, you should see your heli spinning up on its own. If any sticks or keys aren't in the default positions, the motor won't stop. Even when all the keys and switches are in the required positions, we will still get about half of a second of uncontrolled half throttle. Throttle hold won't help.

Theoretically the issue should be able to be fixed on the rx as the rx definitely knows the tx is transmitting but still sending blanks/junks as indicated by its status led. It probably is simply a failsafe feature badly implemented. (it only screws up when signal is kind of half way coming back.)

the issue may also be worked around (shortened, i.e. Less damaging) on the tx side by not allowing the radio module to turn on the rf until everything is good and ready. (more difficult and may require additional hardware.)

good luck.
you are right on that this happens with my brushless quad if i accidently switch off and then on again but i don't use the t9x on my only helicopter ie the wasp :d i use it for my walrus glider, fox multiplex and zmr x power quad and i noticed this phenomenon only on the quad once!
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Old Feb 11, 2014, 09:28 AM
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Joined Jun 2009
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Keep the 9x on the quads. Quads usually have extra arm and unarm operations to guard against unexpected power up. That is what I plan to use my 3 Skyfly RXs on. However I haven't touched my quads lately. Small helis like V911 should be fine too as they are less threatening when something goes wrong.
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Old Feb 13, 2014, 06:16 AM
Flying a Falcon or a RC Heli.
fauconnier's Avatar
Canada, QC, Rimouski
Joined Jul 2012
685 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasp09 View Post
Failsafe configuration does not work for the stock SkyFly radio/RX under that situation. The $9 RX, V911 /V912 control always give half throttle. It may work with non SkyFly based RF modules and RXs.

What do you think about this, ( look the discussions, someone use it with a 9X) ;

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/..._function.html
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Old Feb 13, 2014, 10:19 AM
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Joined Jun 2009
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Fauconnier,

The problem of the $9 RX is not when it loses TX signal, but rather when the TX comes back and is stucked in key/switch check or taking time to become fully functional. (If I remember correctly, I put the RX on scope and found it actually not sending anything when it lost sight of the TX. That is OK. It sent out half throttle as soon as the TX was powered up before it was fully ready. That is not OK.)

Unless the unit locks the main motor when RX stops sending and does NOT unlock the motor when the RX transmits again, the unit is not going to help.

To be sure. Order one and try it out.

Regards.
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Old Feb 19, 2014, 04:27 PM
Flying a Falcon or a RC Heli.
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Canada, QC, Rimouski
Joined Jul 2012
685 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasp09 View Post
It you need that for a plane, you can use the AP302, just turn down the gyro gains on the RX and tail gyro gain on the TX. AP302 has 7 output and is cheap enough to replace 706.

For my plain RX needs, I just got an Walkera RX601 to work with my Devo 7. Took me a while to figure out how to divert the gyro gain to the gear output. By default gyro gain goes to aux2 which does not exist on RX601.

Cheers
Speaking of the 302, I did a couple of surprising crashes with my motorized glider. At first I taught it was a cold servo problem or simply a bad fix. But I found that, when the elev. and rudder is trimmed on the transmitter, suppose -20 , the next flight ( after a cut off) the trimming will be memorized as +20 !!!, and then I compensate -40....and the next flight....+40....and on ....and the servo is at max. even with a 0 trim transmitter. I don't have the problem with the 706 or the 303. May be it has something to do with the 302 helicopter problems.

It's bad , because I like to use the 3x gyro for smooth glide...
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Old Feb 19, 2014, 05:50 PM
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Fauconnier,

With gyro's usually I use 0 trim on the TX and do the trimming mechanically instead.

It is a bit more complicated for cyclic control that 1 - 1 != 0, e.g. with X303V in red mode if we pitch forward 1 unit then return the stick back to netural, it would not put the swash back to level. (It is more like 1 kick/impulse + 1 kick/impulse in opposite direction put the swash back to level.)

When we have trim on the TX, it is a big question mark how the RX/gyro knows whether it is a trim or an input. They are 2 different things on a FBL system. An input follows the impulse maths, but a trim is expected to generate a static offset in the normal way.

I studied how my 4#6S RX (with 3 axis gyro) worked long time ago. If we want a trim on the TX, we have to do the triming with the RX powered off. If we "trim" it in flight, what we see is just the effect of the "trim" added to the stick input. Remember that follows the impulse maths.

It is really difficult to see the effect of the "trim" alone. Theoretically any static non-zero input will lead to a roll over eventually for a gyro, like X303V in red mode. To prevent crashing, we soon have to stick it the opposite way, overriding the "trim" as an input to survive. Hence what we see isn't the "trim". The next time we power up the RX, we may be surprised in getting a totally different effect when the trim really acts like a trim then, assuming the RX/gryo actually understands trims on power up like my 4#6S RX.

I guess some of the RX/gyro simply take whatever signals from the TX as the neutral inputs on power up, and do not use them as offsets to set up the swash at all, hence ignoring any trims from the TX.

You may check if the AP302 actually unstands trims. It may work in a totally different way as AP302 is designed for planes not heli's. Try doing all your trims on the TX with the AP302 powered off. See if you would get any more consistancy that way.

There is also a chance that trims are not persistance on the NASA701 as I don't see them on the menu. If we use trims on TX, we may need a set for each of the 12 models stored on the TX.

Good luck.
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Old Feb 20, 2014, 05:57 AM
Flying a Falcon or a RC Heli.
fauconnier's Avatar
Canada, QC, Rimouski
Joined Jul 2012
685 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasp09 View Post
Fauconnier,

With gyro's usually I use 0 trim on the TX and do the trimming mechanically instead.

It is a bit more complicated for cyclic control that 1 - 1 != 0, e.g. with X303V in red mode if we pitch forward 1 unit then return the stick back to netural, it would not put the swash back to level. (It is more like 1 kick/impulse + 1 kick/impulse in opposite direction put the swash back to level.)

When we have trim on the TX, it is a big question mark how the RX/gyro knows whether it is a trim or an input. They are 2 different things on a FBL system. An input follows the impulse maths, but a trim is expected to generate a static offset in the normal way.

I studied how my 4#6S RX (with 3 axis gyro) worked long time ago. If we want a trim on the TX, we have to do the triming with the RX powered off. If we "trim" it in flight, what we see is just the effect of the "trim" added to the stick input. Remember that follows the impulse maths.

It is really difficult to see the effect of the "trim" alone. Theoretically any static non-zero input will lead to a roll over eventually for a gyro, like X303V in red mode. To prevent crashing, we soon have to stick it the opposite way, overriding the "trim" as an input to survive. Hence what we see isn't the "trim". The next time we power up the RX, we may be surprised in getting a totally different effect when the trim really acts like a trim then, assuming the RX/gryo actually understands trims on power up like my 4#6S RX.

I guess some of the RX/gyro simply take whatever signals from the TX as the neutral inputs on power up, and do not use them as offsets to set up the swash at all, hence ignoring any trims from the TX.

You may check if the AP302 actually unstands trims. It may work in a totally different way as AP302 is designed for planes not heli's. Try doing all your trims on the TX with the AP302 powered off. See if you would get any more consistancy that way.

There is also a chance that trims are not persistance on the NASA701 as I don't see them on the menu. If we use trims on TX, we may need a set for each of the 12 models stored on the TX.

Good luck.
Very interesting.

I use Tx trim all the time on my scratchbuilt planes, I think it is normal to neutralize the plane perfectly in the first seconds. On my X3V the Tx trim work perfectly and is stable. I kept -20% elev. Tx trim ( I recommended this to all beginners) for months on the X3V/701. The 701 remember the trim of each model until you change the model. If we want to keep the trim we save it before switching model.

With my 302 , when the Tx trims are 0 on power On, the servo will be set in the initial, correct place as you anticipate. The Aileron Tx trim. doesn't reverse the trim like the Elev. and Rudd. do !!! Try to understand ! ( elev. is a reverse channel, not rudder )

Now that I know and understand the 302 trim problem, I can live with it . But it cost me several time consuming crashes.

+1 bug on my long list of Skyartec deception....
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Old Feb 26, 2014, 10:09 AM
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Joined Oct 2012
802 Posts
Formally joined the 450 club: VWinRC 450 TS DFC!

Its taken so long that most of you would have forgotten about my 450 project, but I finally managed to fly my custom built 450. The first hover was perfect, but interesting things happened the moment I gave cyclic input! Needless to say I was shaking by the time I managed to land it in one piece, turned out I had my transmitter at 100% D/R.

The Tarot 3500 kV motor is powerful and relatively silent.

The K-Bar is absolutely wonderful! Default settings and it worked the first time. (Anyone wanting a great cost-effective FBL system, just get it!)

VWinRC quality is excellent, and I really like the frame I used. Nice, solid, screw hardware. Torque tube is so much smoother than belt drive.

The VWinRC DFC head is also high quality, but check the dampeners (mine were replaced with the extra ones included in the kit)

Nice slow start on the YEP-45, but its massive. I also need to get rid of the 5 beeps I keep getting (transmitter signal failure?) whenever I power up, but it seems to function OK.

Pictures attached.
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Old Feb 26, 2014, 12:25 PM
when is the wind stopping??
markkona's Avatar
Malta, Marsaskala
Joined Apr 2011
1,566 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lentar View Post
Its taken so long that most of you would have forgotten about my 450 project, but I finally managed to fly my custom built 450. The first hover was perfect, but interesting things happened the moment I gave cyclic input! Needless to say I was shaking by the time I managed to land it in one piece, turned out I had my transmitter at 100% D/R.

The Tarot 3500 kV motor is powerful and relatively silent.

The K-Bar is absolutely wonderful! Default settings and it worked the first time. (Anyone wanting a great cost-effective FBL system, just get it!)

VWinRC quality is excellent, and I really like the frame I used. Nice, solid, screw hardware. Torque tube is so much smoother than belt drive.

The VWinRC DFC head is also high quality, but check the dampeners (mine were replaced with the extra ones included in the kit)

Nice slow start on the YEP-45, but its massive. I also need to get rid of the 5 beeps I keep getting (transmitter signal failure?) whenever I power up, but it seems to function OK.

Pictures attached.

Very nice 450 Lentar very tidy wiring Big well done Good luck and hope you have future safe flights with it
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Old Feb 26, 2014, 05:58 PM
MightyG
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Joined Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by Lentar View Post
Its taken so long that most of you would have forgotten about my 450 project, but I finally managed to fly my custom built 450. The first hover was perfect, but interesting things happened the moment I gave cyclic input! Needless to say I was shaking by the time I managed to land it in one piece, turned out I had my transmitter at 100% D/R.

The Tarot 3500 kV motor is powerful and relatively silent.

The K-Bar is absolutely wonderful! Default settings and it worked the first time. (Anyone wanting a great cost-effective FBL system, just get it!)

VWinRC quality is excellent, and I really like the frame I used. Nice, solid, screw hardware. Torque tube is so much smoother than belt drive.

The VWinRC DFC head is also high quality, but check the dampeners (mine were replaced with the extra ones included in the kit)

Nice slow start on the YEP-45, but its massive. I also need to get rid of the 5 beeps I keep getting (transmitter signal failure?) whenever I power up, but it seems to function OK.

Pictures attached.
Sweet looking bird there Lentar... Kinda reminds me on the Align 450 Dominator... Post some vid of it in the air! I expect to see it inverted (sans training kit) soon

Cheers

MG.
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